Hand-hammering and re-creating cymbals

[Johan VDS]

Hi !

I'm Johan from Bruges, Belgium. I'm a drummer and a sound-freak.

About 20 years ago I started getting a bit frustrated about the kind of cymbals that were available. I had been looking for really complex and dark sounding cymbals but I just couldn't find them in the shops. The modern K's sounded too one-directional and sterile to me. I liked the Turkish Istanbul cymbals better but still they weren't quite what I wanted.

So I started rehammering factory cymbals from Zildjian, Sabian, Paiste, etc. to get the sound I wanted. After a while I learned how to change the sound a certain way through strategical hand-hammering and lathing. I've been doing it ever since.
I also found out that many types of student cymbals can be hammered into professional cymbals, providing the alloy is good.

The cymbals I hammered can be seen AND heard on this webindex page (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/).

Some "before and after modification" files can be heard in THIS (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/) section.

Also check out some of the amateur cymbals I converted into professional cymbals HERE (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/).



This was once a Paiste 3000 22" ride, now a very dark heavy ride:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/22_Undertaker_Dark_Heavy_Ride_(from_Paiste_3000).j pg



This was a 20" Avedis Zildjian crash, now a light complex jazzride:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Low_Jazz_ride_1885gr_(from_Zildji an_Avedis).jpg



This was a Ufip Ritmo 16" crash, now a light trashy crash:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/16_Evaporative_Crash_(from_Ufip_Ritmo).jpg



This was a Zildjian ZBT 20" ride, now a light (professional !) very complex jazzride:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/ZBT_Zildjian_conversion_to_professional_light_jazz _cymbals/20_Ride_(From_Zildjian_ZBT).jpg



A 16" Avedis Zildjian crash, now a china:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/16_Dark_China_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).jpg


Finally a "before and after" pic of a cheap 16" Headliner crash cymbal, now a professional dark thin crash:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/Headliner_16_crash_before_and_after_modification.j pg

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

This thought has occurred to me before. What if I could take my cymbals and modify them to my own needs? Well I'm glad to think I'm not insane. I just don't trust any skills I have. Great job on those cymbals! Congratulations, I think we've just found ourselves a new market niche!

[Chip]

Holy crap, that's awesome!!!! Could you post a tutorial(or you could keep it to yourself........), have you done work with a cymbal manufacturer or did you learn it your self? That's awesome, I have some paiste 302's that could do with a soundover! The headliner looks the most different, absolutely amazing.

Did you need an anvil, I'd imagine you would to use the beak etc. How'd you mount them on the lathe? Is it a special one or conventional metalwork lathe? How many cymbal did screw through trial and error? ............Man I ask a heap of questions...

That's amazing stuff. One has to truly admire what you've done there, that headliner sounds ever so good now, would you be able to, say, write some more about this? This is really great stuff, does eery hit have to be precise, I'd imagine the lathing would be difficult, I have have trouble getting WOOD flat, but a cymbal......... you've really gotta tell man............

[Drummer Karl]

I`m just impressed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you work for a cymbal producer?

Karl

[Johan VDS]

No I don't work for a cymbal producer. I justed started doing it because I couldn't find the sound I wanted.

I learned it myself from trial and error.

My tools are pretty much the same as the ones you see on the websites of Turkish cymbalmanufacturers. Just a few hammers, an anvil and a large diameter lathe.

Hammering isn't something you can easily explain, it's an intricate interplay of shape, tension, thickness which you have to learn to control and get a feel for. You can only acquire that skill through many experience. The best way to start is with very cheap cymbals like Paiste 302 or Sabian Solar. But don't expect these to ever really sound good, their brass alloy doesn't allow for a decent sound.

Student cymbals that offer the possibility of upgrading to pro-level are mainly the ones made from B8 alloy.

[Drummer Karl]

No I don't work for a cymbal producer. I justed started doing it because I couldn't find the sound I wanted.

I learned it myself from trial and error.

My tools are pretty much the same as the ones you see on the websites of Turkish cymbalmanufacturers. Just a few hammers, an anvil and a large diameter lathe.

Hammering isn't something you can easily explain, it's an intricate interplay of shape, tension, thickness which you have to learn to control and get a feel for. You can only acquire that skill through many experience. The best way to start is with very cheap cymbals like Paiste 302 or Sabian Solar. But don't expect these to ever really sound good, their brass alloy doesn't allow for a decent sound.

Student cymbals that offer the possibility of upgrading to pro-level are mainly the ones made from B8 alloy.

Your results are soooo professional!!! You aren`t just a junior member, you have to get the rank "cymbalproducer" or so, too!!

Keep up hammering :)

Karl

[Pete Stoltman]

There's a guy here in the US who does that too. The name escapes me right now but he turns out some wonderful sounding cymbals. I would imagine you ruin a lot of cymbals in the learing process. I admire your skills and ingenuity.

[MuDvAyNe]

dude i have to send you my headliners!

[Johan VDS]

There's a guy here in the US who does that too. The name escapes me right now but he turns out some wonderful sounding cymbals..His name is Mike Skiba.

[russcat]

Dude I love how you name them "Undertaker Ride","Mysterious Crash","Happy Hi-Hats." Do you sell these cymbals?I listened to a lot of them and they all sound awesome!This is my favorite one:



http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7392/18perforationtrashfromsabianaa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Johan VDS]

Dude I love how you name them "Undertaker Ride","Mysterious Crash","Happy Hi-Hats." My friends at Cymbalholic.com helped me finding inspiration for these names.

Concerning your other question I figure it's best that I send you a mail. Which I will do now !

[Pete Stoltman]

His name is Mike Skiba.

Ah yes, thanks very much.

[Johan VDS]

The clips I heard from Mike Skiba's cymbals sounded excellent !

[Slimeball]

Wow, that's amazing! How long did it take to do all that?

[Johan VDS]

You mean all the cymbals on the site? I've hammered most of them within the last 3 years.

[ege_the_drummer]

i find it amazing that you turned a ZBT ride into a good quality jazz ride and the 16" A crash into a china.

[cdawg_2010]

thats awesome! i dont think id be able to do that because id be afraid id ruin them. nice job tho, you should work for a company or start your own

[Chip]

The hammer and the anvil are fine, although the large dia. lathe...... what's the swing on it? I'd imagine it would be "12... Am I right? I'm thinking of upgrading, so the old 302's (or the school's crappy planet Z's, hahahaha) would be good to start.
Can you recommend any websites, videos etc for learning? You should make a video, I'd get it for sure.
Have you ever tried starting from scratch, casting your own, I was going to do this with a homemade forge from an old bell(bell bronze hehe..)
How did you mount it on the lathe, a mandrel-type contraption, or like a spindle with a thread that you can tighten them on to? Awesome work, once again!

[Johan VDS]

Can you recommend any websites, videos etc for learning? I don't know of any instructional material on hammering at present. It's really something you have to learn by trial and error.
The cymbals are indeed mounted on my lathe on a threaded spindle. Check some of the websites or Turkish cymbalbrands, you'll see some lathes there.

[Chip]

Thanks man, great help, I thought it would be too esoteric too really explain, but how would you you suggest to start? Say, visualise a certain sound and try to achieve it?? This is just something I've wanted to do for a few years but haven't had the cymbals to do it.

[Johan VDS]

but how would you you suggest to start? Say, visualise a certain sound and try to achieve it??.
I can only refer to the answer I already gave you a couple of posts before, because basically this is the same question you asked me earlier :)

Experiment with cheap cymbals and you will gradually get the feel how you can change a sound towards a certain predestined goal. There are really too much variables and acquired skills involved to give you a simple clearcut answer on such a question.

My advice is: go for it ! You won't regret it.

[spipedong]

Looks great. I admire your hard work.

Thanks for sharing!

[Chip]

Swell, thanks. I will get onto it with the crappy planet Z's.

Btw, how many cymbals can I expect to mess up before getting a better sound? Because I'm REALLY not made of money at the moment hahaha.

[DogBreath]

Amazing work Johan. Your cymbals are beautiful. Thanks for sharing that with us.

[franklinj]

Oh man, can you do that to my ZBT ride? Pretty please?

Ive always thought about doing something like this. I have everything except the lathe thing in my garage. Man, those are really nice.

[Johan VDS]

Oh man, can you do that to my ZBT ride? . PM sent.


I will get onto it with the crappy planet Z's.
Btw, how many cymbals can I expect to mess up before getting a better sound?
There could be a few disasters if you don't start carefully and systematically. Then again, you can't get those Planet Z's any worse, can you ?? :)

[Johan VDS]

Which part of the anvil is used for getting a lip on a china?It doesn't work that way. The china flange isn't bent or hammered over a lip. It's hammered and shaped entirely on the flat part of the anvil. Flat meaning of course slightly curved like a cymbal anvil is supposed to be.

Also paiste 302 are ms63 (63% copper 37% zinc) which is the same as the headliner that you got an amazing sound out of. You, sir, have truly inspired me. I wish I could find somebody in Australia that could do this.....that headliner has the exact sound I'm looking for.There are B8 headliners too. The one I used was B8. Check the picture, it clearly shows the reddish B8 colour.
The brass Headliners are useless, just like most other brass cymbals. Some Pearl brass cymbals however are made from a better sounding brass variety, these are sometimes worth hammering.



BTW, if you want to see a video of me playing a drumsolo, go to THIS (http://www.badongo.com/file/482418) download page and wait for 30 seconds. After that you will be able to click a download button, you'll see. You need Real player.

The video dates from 2002. I'm using my more rock oriented self-hammered cymbals. The drums and the single bassdrumpedal are ADAMS, the hihatstand is an old Pearl, the snaredrum is one I built myself.

[Chip]

I haven't got a cymbal anvil, only a normal anvil. As for the brass, ah well.... there's always the cheapies I can get that may be a good alloy.
I would watch that solo, I'm sure it's great, but I don't have realplayer because it doesn't work with my 'puter.
Did you build the snare entirely by yourself?

EDIT: I just bought 4 14" bell bronze cymbals for.....................wait for it............................... $AU60 ('bout 40 US). Booy yah. Can't wait, I'm going to use 1 as an aux. crash, and modify the other three.

[Johan VDS]

Did you build the snare entirely by yourself?

Yes, I built the shell from first grade Finnish Birch plywood sheets and I also made the lugs.

Check the snares I made here :
http://jvds.byethost15.com/.HANDBUILT%20snaredrums%20from%20high%20grade%20Fi nnish%20Plywood/

[Chip]

That is AWESOME. Man, you need to make a website/book/DVD or something, that's cool.

Did you make the throw-off ect?
How did you make the shell, steam bending? that's how I was going to do it, butcame across problems. Hoops? I was going to cast my own. But.............. don't really trust myself haha.

[Johan VDS]

Thin sheets of plywood don't require steam to be bent.
I bought the hoops and throw-off.

[Toothbrush]

Great job, they sound really nice.

I've thought of making my ZXT Rock Ride to a ride I liked the sound of... But haven't dared to do it...

Do you have any tips on how you do it?

And beautiful snares you got there

[Johan VDS]

I've thought of making my ZXT Rock Ride to a ride I liked the sound of... But haven't dared to do it...Do you have any tips on how you do it? Please read what I said in this (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=114659&postcount=5) earlier post.

[Toothbrush]

oh okay. sorry, didn't read it all.

Thanks anyway

[Johan VDS]

Check out a new bunch of freshly hammered cymbals I added to my webspace ! Rides, crashes, hihats, china's, a perforation trash...

These are only a couple of them:

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Dark_Hihats_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).jpg

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Fast_Trashy_Light_Hihats_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/6_PERFORATION_cymbals/18_Perforation_Trash_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/15_Fast_China_(from_Paiste_Dimensions).jpg

[Chip]

Awesome job, once again.

How long does each cymbal average to take to modify?
How sensitive is the lathing?

[finnhiggins]

Johan, a question.

I have a cymbal here. It is completely anonymous - no branding at all. However it appears to be of reasonable quality of construction - it is pretty clearly not brass, it is nice and heavy and it sounds like a reasonably alright rock-ride. The cymbal is clearly machine hammered judging by the (very light) hammering pattern. It has some nasty out-of-tune sounding "beats" in the high end of the "ping" that I don't like, and the cymbal as a whole is not to my taste - too pingy, too heavy.

What are the odds that this can be modified to suit my tastes, without destroying it? i.e, if I take a hammer to this thing do I only stand a 25% chance of not ruining the cymbal entirely, in your experience?

Also, what kind of lathing rig do you use, and since I don't own one is there any suggestions of where I might want to look to get some lathing done on the cymbal...? I wouldn't mind taking a bit of the weight off and then taking a hammer to if it I have reasonable odds of making some improvements to it...

[Johan VDS]

How long does each cymbal average to take to modify?
How sensitive is the lathing?I spend hours on a recreation. From some to many hours.
Of course you can hand-hammer a cymbal in much less time, but not with the same results. Not sure what you mean by the second question, but lathing a cymbal properly is equally important as hammering.

What are the odds that this can be modified to suit my tastes, without destroying it? i.e, if I take a hammer to this thing do I only stand a 25% chance of not ruining the cymbal entirely, in your experience?Basically I again have to refer to what I said earlier. Don't expect to run before you can walk. Only after a lot of experimenting with cheap cymbals you'll get a basic feel how you can alter and improve a cymbal. I can only tell what your cymbal needs when I could take it in my own hands, every cymbal is different. But even then I could not put the hammering strategy I have in my head in into a written theory that would work for an unexperienced person.

Suppose you've never seen a set of drums in your life and you ask me to write down how you have to play drums. May it would be possible to teach you a basic rhythm, but I cannot learn you how to groove, swing and make music this way. Same thing with hammering. You have to acquire a FEEL for it. You simply cannot skip the trial and error phase. The only tips I can give you are:

-Make sure the cymbal makes contact with your anvil at the point of hammer-impact.
-Hammer gradually and continously listen how the sound changes. Don't hammer the whole surface at once because you will not learn anything this way.

For the tools and lathe, go to the websites of Bosphorus or other Turkish cymbalmanufacturers. Mine look virtually the same. You need a large diameter lathe powered by a strong electric motor. Mine is 2 HP.

[finnhiggins]

Basically I again have to refer to what I said earlier. Don't expect to run before you can walk. Only after a lot of experimenting with cheap cymbals you'll get a basic feel how you can alter and improve a cymbal. I can only tell what your cymbal needs when I could take it in my own hands, every cymbal is different. But even then I could not put the hammering strategy I have in my head in into a written theory that would work for an unexperienced person.

Suppose you've never seen a set of drums in your life and you ask me to write down how you have to play drums. May it would be possible to teach you a basic rhythm, but I cannot learn you how to groove, swing and make music this way. Same thing with hammering. You have to acquire a FEEL for it. You simply cannot skip the trial and error phase. The only tips I can give you are:

-Make sure the cymbal makes contact with your anvil at the point of hammer-impact.
-Hammer gradually and continously listen how the sound changes. Don't hammer the whole surface at once because you will not learn anything this way.

For the tools and lathe, go to the websites of Bosphorus or other Turkish cymbalmanufacturers. Mine look virtually the same. You need a large diameter lathe powered by a strong electric motor. Mine is 2 HP.


Thanks for that. Much appreciated!

Just in the interest of doing some research before I decide if I should attempt this or not... Are there any general rules of thumb you could advise with respect to hammering and lathing patterns and their relationship to sound?

For example, my experience from purchasing cymbals would tend to suggest that very heavily hammered cymbals would be more complex or rich sounding, while cymbals that have very light hammering patterns are more likely to have a cleaner "ping" sound. But what about the influence of lathing? While this would clearly take off metal and influence the weight of the cymbal, does the scoring depth etc effect the tone in any reliable way? Are there rules of thumb that are likely to apply here?

I suppose these are more cymbal *design* questions rather than questions about the practical process of learning to hammer or lathe effectively. So I hope these might be more answerable than just "Hey, Johan! Tell me how to do that!"...

[Johan VDS]

very heavily hammered cymbals would be more complex or rich sounding, while cymbals that have very light hammering patterns are more likely to have a cleaner "ping" sound
That's correct, it only depends on what you mean by "light" and "heavily". To simplify, very deep hammermarks will generally add trash (especially to a thinner cymbal), while less deep hammerstrokes will make the sound richer in a subtler way. But then there's the amount and location of the hammerstrokes and above all the strategy behind the hammering and we're off again.
That's what most people forget about: the strategy. It is not because a cymbal is hammered by a hand held hammer that it will sound good. The quality and musicality depend on WHY you hammer in this or that way. I see this as a sort of communication with the bronze. You give a certain amount of hammerstrokes in a certain place and the cymbal gives you back a certain change of sound. Then you work further based on the feedback you got from the cymbal. Experience will learn you how the cymbal will react to a certain hammering strategy. But every cymbal, even every rough B20 alloy casting is different to start with and will react slightly different to a certain way of hammering. A hammer robot can't interact with these differences, it just executes its program, which ever way the sound evolves.

It is generally said that hand hammering is "random" hammering. I can tell you it is not. At least not when it's done with a strategy. The so called hand-hammering you see on the Sabian Handhammereds or the random machine hammering on the Zildjian K's hasn't really been done with very much strategy. It's there mostly for visual reasons. Of course it alters the sound a bit and complexifies it slightly but the amount of strokes is too sparse to really create a rich sound or to significally alter the basic sound of the pressed blank.

Then why do the HH's and K's sound warmer than the A's and AA's you might ask? Simply because of the lower profiles that most of these cymbals have. But the profile was created by a press, not by the hammering. Just like the A's are first pressed before they are machine hammered. So really the price difference between an A Zildjian and a K is purely artificial and cannot be justified by the manufacturing process. Not to speak of the ridiculous price difference between a regular K and a K Constantinople. For the latter is also entirely machine made.


But what about the influence of lathing? While this would clearly take off metal and influence the weight of the cymbal, does the scoring depth etc effect the tone in any reliable way? Are there rules of thumb that are likely to apply here?Deep sharp grooves add more sparkle and assertiveness to the tone (like Zildjian Avedis) while smooth fine grooves will produce a more gentle and controlled sound (like Zildjian A Custom).

Then there's also the tapering (making the cymbal thinner towards the edge). A thinner edge will enhance the crasheability.


Hey, Johan! Tell me how to do that!"...Uhm...do it WELL of course :)


if I should attempt this or not... You should !

[Chip]

Would a 1.5 hp wood lathe with outboard turning do the trick? Which tool, is it a special one or just like a scraper with indexable inserts?

Is getting the right sensitivity on the lathe as hard as it seems? I got 4 cheap 80/20 cymbals that I plan to modify. 2 for hats, 1 crash and the other................maybe a splash.

Does it HAVE to be a cymbal anvil?

[Johan VDS]

Would a 1.5 hp wood lathe with outboard turning do the trick?That should work.a scraper with indexable inserts?Yes, use carbide inserts.Is getting the right sensitivity on the lathe as hard as it seems? Yes, if you allow the cutting tool to linger just a few seconds too long on one spot you may ruin the cymbal.Does it HAVE to be a cymbal anvil?No, but you need a massive round or square solid steel object with a slightly curved surface.

[Chip]

Groovy, thanks man. Could you make a video on the lathing, because I have no idea how long to spend on one spot (if you have a camera). As for wrecking cymbals, I don't care because I won the lottery. Just kidding, but I can get a pair of 80 copper/20 tin 14' hihats for $30AU ('bout $25 USD for comparison, I don't know the value of your money). As for the anvil, I have a giant cast iron block with rounded edges, that should do for now :).

[RMS]

Boy, this makes me wish I hadn't sold all my cheap cymbals when I bought nice ones!

I have modified a Paiste 2002 14" extra thin into a 11.5 splash. It turned out great! But it was pretty simple, I just sheared off enough metal to get rid of a crack that had been spreading for a while, then sanded it. I will use it until it cracks again, then probably will fix it again! It was actually originally part of an orchestral setup...didn't know that when I bought it.

I have a question:
As far as selling the cymbals you have altered, do you think the companies that originally made them would have something against that? I wouldn't think they would even be able to tell after you have changed them, they are unrecognizable. But if they found out, would it be a problem? If you were turning a profit, that is.

[Chip]

Have you tried for buying bell bronze? Or you could buy the sabian thundersheets for around 250 I think they are, and use it as maybe 2-3 cymbal blanks, instead of getting a 250 20" ride to modify. I think there are people who would pay a lot of moo-lah for these *actually* HH cymbals. Very custom sounds.

[NUTHA JASON]

you are incredible man. have you ever contacted any of the big companies and shown them your work? i bet they'd hire you. you oviously have a great eye for the modern way a cymbal should look and more importantly an ear for the sound...plus you have deep experience in what properties of hammering and lathing a cymbal can have. you should send your portfolio to zildjian, sabian and paiste.

j

[Johan VDS]

have you ever contacted any of the big companies and shown them your work? i bet they'd hire you. Suppose they'd hire me, I wouldn' t have the freedom anymore to make what I want. Or they'd probably force me into making a certain quantity in a given time, which would again prevent me to make really high quality cymbals. But thanks for your compliment anyway !

Could you make a video on the lathingI don't have a camera, I spent all my money on buying cymbals (I really did). That's why currently I don't intend to buy new blanks either..

do you think the companies that originally made them would have something against that?I bought these cymbals. They're mine so I can do with them whatever I want. People modify cars and sell them, so why not a cymbal ?

[RMS]

I guess you are right. I was just wondering because I would like to put an add at the music stores here in St. Louis asking for cracked cymbals. If they are only cracked at the edge then I could do something with them...maybe sell them if they turn out well.

I'd like some advice...since I had success with my Paiste, I have decided to go ahead and try to do something with this 15" A Custom Crash:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3340&stc=1&d=1139284738

It has a larger bell than the Paiste. I'm afraid it will sound too "pingy" when I bring it down to about 12". The Paiste had a very small bell, so even with a few inches taken off it still is somewhat proportionate to what a splash should be.
So my question is this: If, after cutting and sanding the edges down, it sounds too "clanky", would hammering the bell make it (the bell) appear smaller sonically? Or simply, what effect does hammering the bell on a smaller cymbal have? I noticed that Paragon splashes, which i like, have a hammered bell.

Of course I may like it just fine after cutting it, but just in case I don't...

by the way I did not crack this cymbal. It was given to me like this. I actually don't ever crack cymbals, it only happens when I let ham-fisted people play my kit. which I don't, anymore.

[Johan VDS]

You can rarely make a good sounding cymbal by just cutting a cracked cymbal down. Certainly not if you have to take so much off. The shape and the internal tension are totally distorted after the downsizing. Some downsized cymbals will even spontaneously flip inside out. Most of them sound totally unmusical and clunky.

So when I'm asked to cut down cracked cymbals I always rehammer them into proper shape and tension. I also lathe them to correct the taper.

Sometimes the size of the bell will indeed be out of proportion with the new diameter. Then it will be impossible to create a musically sounding cymbal (unless you want to make a crazy effects cymbal). Like when you downsize an 18" to 16" or smaller. But when the cymbal is sheet metal (like B8) I can often downsize the cup by hammering it in a special way. Not just by hammering the surface of the cup like you suggest (that will certainly not make it smaller, on the contrary).

In the case of your A Custom the cup will not be too big, because most splashes have a oversized cup anyway (check the Zildjian splashes, Zildjian probably uses the same bell press for splashes and for crashes up to 17"). But the rest of the cymbal will need rehammering and lathing.

Sanding is a very bad because you create thin spots this way. Certainly when sanding irregularly hammered cymbals.

[RMS]

Thank you, that was a very detailed reply, you anwered all my questions.
I guess I won't try to sell any that I "fix", lol. I am not equipped to fix the taper, with my Paiste (have you heard it? It's on my video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ4h1iiQgEs It is in the center of my kit, you can hear me hit it every now and then during the song) I had to sand the edges because they were sharp and could cut me. There are also a small "ripple" every inch or so around the edge from where I stressed the metal with the shears. I had to make radial cuts every inch and the stress extended down past the cuts, and I didn't quite sand it to that point. It will probably crack again along one of these marks, but I think they add character! lol.
Well I couldn't be happier with how it sounds, very pleased because it's just the sound I would have looked for had I been shopping for a splash. Of course it has nothing to do with how I did it, the credit must go to the original cymbals sound and shape. It was very low profile and now it's almost completely flat.

I will attempt the A Custom. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[stmbtdrummerboy]

i gotta say...this is frickin amazing!!!! you have got some serious talent. Soooooo, i still haven't read anything about where/how to buy your cymbals.......

[Johan VDS]

I buy them in the same places as everyone. I don't get any discount, so I really spent a fortune buying cymbals ...

[Chip]

Johan, I found some 10cm/4in disks, I don't know what material they are, I'm not really concerned, they were for practicing hammering. They sound so good! Especially for what they're made of! As effects cymbals, they are great. I don't know what they would sound like any bigger, but they sound like an ice bell with BITE! I didn't lathe them because I don't have my lathe at the moment, I don't think I will (my lathe is 1hp, not 1.5, will this still be sufficient?). The holes were already in the silver ones. I think they are tin and brass.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/Steely_Dan15/100_1.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/Steely_Dan15/100_2.jpg

[Johan VDS]

Well done !
The middle ones are definitely brass, the other ones might be tin.
Your lathe will be sufficient for these small diameters, you only need a really powerful motor for larger cymbals.

[Chip]

The tin ones sound pathetic though, the sound doesn't cut through. Once I drill and mount the brass ones though........Hoo hoo hoo.... The cheapest effects cymbals ever, I paid nothing! They sound like a mini-town-bell, one has a lot higher pitch. How big do you reckon the lathe would handle? 16"? All I'm worried about is if it'll do 14 because I have those to modify as of tomorrow, the 16" will still be a while yet. And the school has a 1.5 woodfast also with outboard, so I could use that too I guess. But the brass ones sound like...... the bell of the meinl mega bell rock ride when hit with the taper of a drumstick with a little less attack........ hmmmmm..... I'll try modifing these tomorrow, thanks Johan, you're a great help!

Can you remember what happened when you modified your first cymbal? I'm usually ok at these things but........ it's expensive if I kill them.......
Speaking of expensive, you should try selling a few with a high reserve on the internet to cover you're cymbal costs, then you could get more if you got a profit, and so on and so forth.

[Johan VDS]

The tin ones sound pathetic though, the sound doesn't cut throughLet them rest for a while, they will probably gain sound. The brass ones will also. Better don't play freshly hammered cymbals for a little while, the metal molecules must be given time to recrystallise. Factories also store their new cymbals for a period of time before they ship them. Otherwise no one would buy them because they sound very muted immediately after manufacturing.

How big do you reckon the lathe would handle? 16"? It depends on how the lathe is geared. If it's geared down enough 1 HP is sufficient for even larger cymbals.

Can you remember what happened when you modified your first cymbal? The cymbal that made me grab a hammer initially was a very disappointing brand new 18" K Zildjian I had just received. I had hoped for a dark sound but this cymbal sounded terribly stiff and high pitched. It was really out of frustration and despair I decided to try hammering it myself. I figured I had nothing to lose because the sound could not get any worse. To my surprise hammering it actually improved it but not in the way I wanted. It sounded more trashy allright but not in the most musical way :) Back then I thought that hammering would automicatically create a lovely dark complex sound, but I quickly found that it's not so simple. Only then I started to experiment with cheap cymbals. Mind you I don't advise anyone to start with expensive cymbals. If I think now about the way I hammered that K back then I was very lucky not to break it.

Speaking of expensive, you should try selling a few with a high reserve on the internet to cover you're cymbal costs, then you could get more if you got a profit, and so on and so forth.Well they're all for sale !! Just mail (drumcymb@yahoo.com) me if you want to know the price of a certain cymbal.

[Chip]

How long should they rest for? I left 2 days (because I didn't have the time).

A K made you grab a hammer? I hate the sound of my crash, but I don't have the guts to take a hammer to it, haha, nor can I afford it. The hats I bought are 'Bellcarroll', I THINK they may have some relation to Wuhan, I'll post pics when I go to pick them up. I was just looking on the net, then I saw these hihats, I looked in the description, it said 80% copper 20% tin, I didn't believe it, I looked at the price, $30AU a pair! So I got 2 pairs.

The lathe has stepped cone pulleys, and a variable speed lever. Is there a certain RPM requirement? I think it's top is 1500. I don't know it's lowest speed.

Well they're all for sale !! Just mail me if you want to know the price of a certain cymbal.

Man, I'd love to, but I can't afford it.But for interest's sake, how much would you say..........the Avedis light jazz ride? Have you tried eBay?
Sell them as custom actual hand hammered cymbals, describe the sounds, explain that some cymbals aren't even hammered by hand, manufacturing cost, man hours etc

How did you get the perforations in? How many cymbals did you go through before you could start manipulating them to your liking? How many questions am I going to ask haha. Just kidding.

[RMS]

Will a regular claw hammer work for hammering cymbals? Provided one follows proper technique (which I only have a vague idea of, but using the wrong tool for the job could definitely break my cymbal). I won't say that you gave me bad advice if I do end up breaking it, but I'm going to hammer it anyways....

[Johan VDS]

How long should they rest for?It differs per alloy (and also per variation within the alloy). Also how much you hammered it is important. You'll notice when the sound becomes brighter and eventually stops changing. But it'll take more than 2 days for sure.

The lathe has stepped cone pulleys, and a variable speed leverTry the lowest speed first. When it turns too fast you will notice that the cutting tool bumps and cuts irregularly (leaving certain spots untouched and others cut too deep)

Will a regular claw hammer work for hammering cymbalsIf the head is round and gently curved yes. You do need a good quality hammer with a hard hammerhead.

[RMS]

Thank you very much, Johan.

And of course you were right about the bell, it doens't seem too large.

But I cut my cymbal down last night, and right away I realized why this A Custom isn't going to sound good right away: It's so heavy! Even with all that metal taken off, it is still pretty hefty, after all it was just a regular crash, while my Paiste was an extra-thin. So I'm gonna hammer the crap out of it, and if it ends up sounding like a small china then that will be fine, because it soundls like a planet z right now!

[RMS]

Okay, I test-hammered the scraps of bronze that I cut off. I think I need a ball-peen hammer, because my claw hammer just seems to score the metal and not dent it enough. So yeah, it's not a round head like you said, just beveled.

[xkevinx]

this is one of the coolest things i've seen around. great work!
i know everyone is asking this and you keep giving the same answer but... if you put together a simple kind of tutorial covering the tools required, a few techniques, etc, i'm sure alot of people would be interested. the art of hand hammering and lathing is very guarded and traditionally passed down through a few select families. it would be awesome to have some light shed on this subject. thanks for the inspiration!!

[Johan VDS]

my claw hammer just seems to score the metal and not dent it enough. You don't always need to dent the metal. That claw hammer will be useful sometimes.

[Chip]

Is the a particular method of removing sustain? I recieved my new cymbals saturday, for 30 bucks, they sound really good. Aside from the sustain and they are a tad bright, but for the price I can't really complain. They sound really good, but ring for a good (bad I guess...haha) 30 seconds. Bugs me badly.

Also, do you have a stand without a felt on top to quick test the sound? And my hands tire quickly, is this normal?

[Johan VDS]

Is the a particular method of removing sustain?It's different for each cymbal I'm afraid.
Also, do you have a stand without a felt on top to quick test the sound?Test it on the tip of your finger, then you have no hardware resonance.

And my hands tire quickly, is this normal?You have to relax on the grip, it's just like good drumming technique. Let the weight of the hammer do the work.

[Chip]

You have to relax on the grip, it's just like good drumming technique. Let the weight of the hammer do the work.

Oh ok, haha, must have been that picture of a paiste dark dry ride, the one with craters in it!
I've just been getting accuracy and practicing on bits of tin etc. So I can basically let the hammer fall (unless it needs force)? I have a quick 4 second shot of hammering (actually by hand) from the sabian tour video on theor site, I'll watch a bit of it.

It's a shame that I can't just remove a bit of sustain easily.... they would sound so good if I did......

When hammering, am I trying to alter the shape, thickness & structure?

Thanks

[jbomber]

Johan,
You are modern-day master. I've enjoyed your work posted here and on the old Cymbalholic site. You obviously work with the B8 and B20 bronze and have performed some magical upgrades to the of-the-shelf outputs from many a cymbal manufacturer. Shifting gears, what is your thought on the older cymbals that were made of the nickel-bronze (or sometimes referred to as nickel-silver) for recreation? Can this tough alloy be improved? In contrast to the old K's and A's, many nickel-bronze cymbals gave a unique voice to old jazz recordings using older lines like Paiste Stambuls (pre-1965)

Would you be interested in taking a stab at an 18" nickel-bronze crash or 22" nickel-bronze ride? I've have a several old Stanoples, Dynastars, Supers and Ludwig-Paiste standards that are hit and miss by themselves.

Once again, superb work,

J

[Johan VDS]

Would you be interested in taking a stab at an 18" nickel-bronze crash or 22" nickel-bronze ride? I've have a several old Stanoples, Dynastars, Supers and Ludwig-Paiste standards that are hit and miss by themselves.JSure, I've done quite a bit of them.

But be selective in what you send me because it's impossible to flog a dead horse to life. What I mean is that some variations of "nickelbronze" have a very dull sound. You probably have some nickelbronze pies that sound completely dead, lacking volume and brightness (sounding as if they are covered with tape), while others may have plenty of life and brilliance even though they are very old. Only send me the latter kind. These can be significantly improved in terms of warmth and complexity.

So select the ones that have volume but disregard the sound quality . The same applies to brass cymbals. It may sound strange, but some well known brands often use a poor sounding grade of brass that dulls very fast after being played for a short time (like Paiste 302, Meinl Meteor or Sabian Solar) while some cheaper brands (like Pearl) often use a far richer sounding kind of brass with much more sound durability.

If you decide to go for it, please mail (drumcymb@yahoo.com) me for details.

[Johan VDS]

When hammering, am I trying to alter the shape, thickness & structure? You're mainly changing shape and tension. To change thickness by hammering you would have to hammer VERY much so the metal gets stretched. Which will alter the profile of the cymbal considerably or will create huge bumps.

[jbomber]

Sure, I've done quite a bit of them.



Do you have some examples in your portfolio of Nickel-bronze recreations (or did I just miss them when I looked through your posted files)?

I'm pulling out all my nickel-bronze cymbals tonight for my band's practice to see whether I have one that still has volume, projection, and life in it. Thanks again.

J

[Johan VDS]

Not on my site I'm afraid but I can mail you a pic and a soundfile of an extreme modification I did of a Meinl nickelbronze 24" ride.

Just mail (drumcymb@yahoo.com)me and I'll mail you back the files.

[RMS]

Okay, Johan, here's an update of my A Custom project. Once again, here is the before pic: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3340&stc=1&d=1139284738

And here is where I'm at now: It is now about 10.5 inches. Basically I think the only way to for me to make this cymbal usable again, with my limitations, is to make it as trashy as possible. It's very clanky right now. Do you think I can hammer the heck out of it until it's thinner? I haven't smoothed the edges yet because I don't want to waste all that time if I end up breaking it. Also that's J&B Weld on the center hole, there were several micro-cracks around it, from one to three millimeters long. I think it'll be fine. As you can see, I've already hammered it a lot, not knowing what I was doing. I made it all floppy like sheet metal, but I was able to get it back into shape somewhat, it doesn't flop right now.

[Johan VDS]

Judging from the looks of the hammer indentations, I wouldn't be surprised if you already caused a few hairline cracks. You might be lucky though. But if you continue to hammer this way it will certainly crack.

Basically I think the only way to for me to make this cymbal usable again, with my limitations, is to make it as trashy as possible. That's true :)

Do you think I can hammer the heck out of it until it's thinner?No, you'll almost certainly break it. You need a lathe to make it thinner.

I've already hammered it a lot, not knowing what I was doing I'm afraid that is correct too :)

Don't try learning to hammer on B20 alloy cymbals like these. This cut down cymbal could have been reworked into a lovely splash if you had first gained some hammering experience by experimenting on cheap sheetmetal cymbals.

[RMS]

Yeah, but I don't have any cheap cymbals to practice on...or any money. I figured what the heck, I didn't pay for it and wasn't using it. And it was already busted. Well, I'm going to go down to the grocery store, there's a concrete post sticking up out of the ground, behind the building, that will serve as an "anvil". I'm gonna hammer this thing into a mini-china kang.

Didn't you get your start on a B20 alloy? A new K, was it? :)

[Johan VDS]

Didn't you get your start on a B20 alloy? A new K, was it? :)Yes indeed, but I shouldn't have, so I will not advise anyone to make the same mistake :)

[RMS]

Okay, I think I killed it...(pokes it with a stick)...Yep, it's dead.

[RMS]

The amazing thing is that I hammered it for a couple of hours and it didn't crack...I mean it's all bent out of shape now and sounds like a frying pan, but it makes me wonder how the guy who gave it to me broke it in like 10 places...

Oh well, I might work on it from time to time and maybe someday I'll get it symetrical.

[Johan VDS]

Okay, I think I killed it...(pokes it with a stick)...Yep, it's dead.Congrats, you just found out how Zildjian makes their Crashes of Doom :))

[Stu_Strib]

Johan,

Can you transform my Sabian HH Raw Dry ride for me? It is too heavy and clanky. If you made those horrible ZBTs sound 'almost' acceptable to me, then you can really rework this peice o' metal!

Awesome stuff man!

[Johan VDS]

Johan,

Can you transform my Sabian HH Raw Dry ride for me? Certainly. I'll mail the details to your email-address.

[Chip]

Man, that A custom brings a tear to my eye.........

Tomorrow l will practice hammering, then I will finally make a start on these new hats of mine.

Deep breath. Hehehe.

[RMS]

Yeah...good luck and be careful...lol

[Chip]

Yeah, I'm going to start softly..............And be especially careful after seeing that A custom, hehehe.

Johan, what do you think of Bosphorus cymbals? They seem to be on your line of thinking.

[fooleeze]

I don't believe you've added this yet, but can you give advice on where to find a good convex anvil (and even what size/type to look for), some hammers, as well as parts to build a large diameter lathe? Perhaps some tips on building that lathe?

Your work is amazing.

Todd

[AvengedDrummer]

How much do you charge for your work? Cause my friend has a crappy ZBT ride lying around...

[RMS]

How much does it cost to ship a ride cymbal to Bruges?

"Would you like a chocolate, Mini-Me? They're from Bruges. That's where daddy's from."

[Johan VDS]

How much do you charge for your work? Cause my friend has a crappy ZBT ride lying around...
All details about modification rates and procedure can be found HERE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/MODIFICATION_RATES-PROCEDURE-CONTACT.doc).


How much does it cost to ship a ride cymbal to Bruges?I can only tell you my shipping rates to you.
I'm afraid you'll have to inquire about your shipping rates to me. You can find out on the website of your national post service or carrier.

[Johan VDS]

I finished hammering a fresh batch of cymbals.

To name a few:

16"_Dark_Trashy_Thin_Crash_(from_Istanbul_Turk)

16"_Dark_Trashy_Thin_Crash_(from_Zildjian_Avedis)

18"_Light_Crashride_(from_Ufip)

20"_Light_Complex_High_Jazz_ride_1875gr_(from_Zildjia n_Avedis)

14"_Medium_Hihats_(from_Istanbul_Turk)


Also some Tony Williams-like ("Nefertiti") rides:

22_Complex_Ride_2720gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis)

22_Complex_Ride_High_2600gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis)

22_Complex_Dark_Ride_2770_gr_(from_Paiste_2002)



Soundfiles and pics of everthing on my webspace (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/)


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/22_Complex_Ride_High_2600gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis) .jpg
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/22_Complex_Dark_Ride_2770_gr_(from_Paiste_2002).jp g
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Light_Crashride_(from_Ufip).jpg
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/16_Dark_Trashy_Thin_Crash_(from_Istanbul_Turk).jpg
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/16_Light_Dry_Crash_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg

[mind_drummer]

Simply Awesome Johan !

You are doing some really nice work, you're very talented :-)

About your birch snare (which sound really good), I have few question;

how many ply did you use ?

Did it needed re-ring ?

Which glue did you use ?

How did you make the mold ?

You are inspiring me to give a try to hand-hammering my cheap cymbals and build my own snare even if I have my own idea how to build it.

I think a good "how-to" web site from you would be amazing... and a must for us !

keep goin' your fantastic work !

A+

[Johan VDS]

I don't believe you've added this yet, but can you give advice on where to find a good convex anvil (and even what size/type to look for), some hammers, as well as parts to build a large diameter lathe? Perhaps some tips on building that lathe?
ToddFinding a solid piece of steel big enough for an anvil may not be easy. You need something with a diameter of 4 to 7 inches and about 3 inches thick. Then you have to grind the surface to a gentle curve.
Hammers are the smallest problem. A few good quality ballpeen hammers are ok, ranging from rather flattish to round.
To get an idea how a cymbal lathe looks, go to the websites of Turkish cymbalbrands. You'll need a powerful electric motor (mine is 2 HP), a heavy duty shaft mounted on 2 roller bearings. You'll have to be as creative to build your lathe as to hammer cymbals I'm afraid.

About your birch snare (which sound really good), I have few question;
how many ply did you use ?Did it needed re-ring ?Which glue did you use ?How did you make the mold ?
I've made 9 to 15 ply shells, the one you're referring to has 9. No re-ring (I hate re-rings for snares and toms). Any professional moisture-proof woodglue will do. My mold was an ultra-thick and perfectly round 13" tom with a few extra plies added to the outside to correct the diameter..

[Chip]

Aaaaaaah! Seeing those beautifully modified cymbals makes me envious. I tried it yesterday.
Looks and sounds worse. I accidentally hit it while it was off the anvil and cracked the cymbal................AAAAHHH! I want your experience!

[Johan VDS]

I accidentally hit it while it was off the anvil and cracked the cymbal................AAAAHHH! I want your experience!
Keep on trying !

Or get a HUGE anvil :)

[Chip]

I only have a tiny corner to work on.. Would a giant ball pein in a vice be good you reckon?

I did crack the cymbal, I left it for a few days like you said, but now it sounds better. Real trashy. It's a groove crack, so I'll have to cut it down. Ah well.. I needed a splash. All this just makes me appreciate your work so much more. You should get B8's for CuSn8 cymbals, and Sabian XS20's for B20 instead of buying A's and K's etc. Or do you want it to be a certain shape, and then fine tune it?

[Johan VDS]

I only have a tiny corner to work on.. Would a giant ball pein in a vice be good you reckon? Sure, if you can aim like Lucky Luke...

[Chip]

Hmmmm.... maybe this was my problem. I'll have to find a better anvil then.

Sure, if you can aim like Lucky Luke...

As you can tell with my cracked cymbal situation, I couldn't hit the broad side of barn with a sniper rifle, 3 meters away.

[Johan VDS]

IAh well.. I needed a splash. Then you'll have to rehammer it again totally, redistribute the tension correctly AND lathe it, at the same time correcting the taper....


Or do you want it to be a certain shape, and then fine tune it? I most cases I can radically alter the shape, like changing a flat cymbal into a very steep shape.

Only if I need to make a very flattish cymbal, it's difficult doing this starting for a very high profiled B20 cymbal. But for sheet alloys, this is no problem at all.

[Chip]

If you change the shape so much, why get the more expensive ones for recreation? It's seems more logical to get XS20 or I hear Paiste Rude are real thick, so you it could open up a thicker cymbals option.
You tend to make thinner cymbals though, don't you? I like thinner cymbals.

[Johan VDS]

If you change the shape so much, why get the more expensive ones for recreation? It's seems more logical to get XS20 or I hear Paiste Rude are real thick, so you it could open up a thicker cymbals option.
You tend to make thinner cymbals though, don't you? I like thinner cymbals.

Thanks, but my place is already filled with cymbals, so for the time being I don't intend to buy new ones.

Indeed I am mostly asked to make cymbals thinner. But sometimes I make very heavy cymbals too, even for metal-drummers. Perhaps my website gives you the wrong impression in this regard. Most of the cymbals you can hear on my website I hammered/lathed to my personal taste. People often get the wrong impression that I can only modify cymbals in this way...

[Chip]

House full of cymbals you say? I'll help! So your cymbal library is much more vast than the library on your page? With the thicker cymbls, I ment you could perhaps do more with them, perhaps deeper grooves. For next time though, try for the cheaper b8 and b20 alloys.

What you could do is get a B8 performance set or whatever the devil it's called, recreate it to a 2002 performance set! Sell for twice the price, and so on and so forth.

Some food for thought though, contact Fooleeze (on this forum somewhere) about his website Cymbalcellar (www.cymbalcellar.com), maybe you could sell some customs on there? Maybe a section where people make requests for cymbals? For a nice little price I'd imagine....

[Johan VDS]

I'll have to give it to you Chip, though that cymbal you hammered (the one looking like it was trampled by an elephant wearing women's heels) didn't exactly convince me of your cymbalsmithing talents, your chances of becoming a brilliant and cunning marketing consultant are certainly undisputable ....:)

[Chip]

I admit, my elephant WAS wearing high heels. Practice though, practice.
With the cheaper cymbals, just check it out next time, if you can get the same sort of results, it'd be a heck of a lot cheaper. Maybe try eBay?

Were you being serious about my business tactics?

[Chip]

Also, were you talking about the cymbal I hammered? The A custom wasn't me by the way. I did the four mini ones, 2 brass, 2 tin. I did another one but killed it. I'm looking for sheet brass to practice accuracy etc on first.

[Johan VDS]

Also, were you talking about the cymbal I hammered? The A custom wasn't me by the way
You're right, the honour for the trampled cymbal goes to RMS ! :) My mistake !

Well in that case it looks like you'll become both a good cymbalsmith AND salesman (and if I got you right may be even a naughty Paiste 2002 forger??)

[Chip]

Ah good, I have been evaluated by a true cymbalsmith. Speaking of which, what's the longest you can remember you've spent on a cymbal? They used to spend weeks on them back with the old turkish ones.

I don't think one could sell them as 2002's, you could probably sell them as Paiste Immotations (ment to spell it like that [sic], making fun of innovations) (one could try though, hehehe).

If you decide to sell them on eBay, you could link it to this thread as to explain your works, as people may put bad judgements, ie not brand name, must be crap. Foolish, foolsih people if they think this. Certainly not crap. Also make sure to say hand hammered, very appealing.

If you decide to sell them on cymbalcellar, I'm sure you could ask fooleeze to link to it.

If you decide not to sell them, you can sit in your house full of cymbals with most of the people on this site in deep envy, but I guess that's happening anyway, no?

When you bought all the more expensive cymbals, did you know of the lower ranges (that still have good alloys)?

[Chip]

I think RMS's elephant was wearing platforms.

My edit button doesn't work properly.

[Johan VDS]

If you decide to sell them on eBay, you could .....If you decide to sell them on .... You REALLY want me to get rich, don't you ?? :))

If you decide not to sell them...
Rest assured, they ARE for sale. But I only want to sell them to people who really want them for their sound, not because they fell for a certain marketing ploy.

[Chip]

You REALLY want me to get rich, don't you ?? :))
Yeah man! Anybody that has a passion as such, and has put this much effort (and k's) into this deserves it!

So you're saying you don't want unknowledged rich boys buying because they must be the best? Hmmmm, I really understand that, I haven't personally seen it that badly, but I've heard heaps about it. A real problem in our drumming community. I've been playing a crappy kit for a while, I feel I deserve a good kit more than rich kids starting out. On the topic of kits, what kit do you play?

[Johan VDS]

On the topic of kits, what kit do you play? Here's (http://jvds.byethost15.com/Solo_from_2002.rm) me doing a little solo.
The videoclip dates from 2002. I'm using my more rock oriented (cleaner-sounding) self-hammered cymbals. The drums and the single bassdrumpedal are ADAMS, the hihatstand is an old Pearl, the snaredrum is one I built myself.

Still playing Adams drums now but a different kit:

[Chip]

I would watch, but I don't have real player. Looks nice though.

Out of curiosity, do you have/remember a favourite cymbal?

Also, would buying sheet brass (cheaper than bronze) to make cymbals from scratch for practice?

[Johan VDS]

I'm afraid I have many favourite cymbals :)

Practising on brass cymbals is a good idea, but remember this is an extremely soft alloy which requires only soft hammering (unless you want to create huge hammerdents of course).

BTW a good alternative for Real Player (without spyware) is Real Alternative :
http://www.codecguide.com/download_real.htm

[AvengedDrummer]

That solo was AWESOME!!! wow you have talent! Seriously, thats one of the best Ive seen in a while.

[Josh is a cult]

could you re hammer a B8 or would that mess it up?
re-lathe?

i apologise for all of the spelling errors

[Johan VDS]

could you re hammer a B8 or would that mess it up?
re-lathe?Sure, check my site, I hammer lots of B8 alloy cymbals. You wouldn't believe what can be done with them. Cymbal factories only use a fragment of its sound potential.

[Ufipman!]

Nice solo, that was fun!

[Johan VDS]

Fresh from my hammer, soundfiles as usually on my SITE (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/).

20" Tony Williams (Nefertiti) ride :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Ride_(from_Sabian_AA).jpg




20" Complex Dry Crashride :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Dry_Crashride_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg



20" Dry Complex Rough Ride :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Dry_Complex_Rough_Ride_(from_Paiste_Dimensions) .jpg

[Josh is a cult]

i want high hats like that last one!
i love that!

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Actually the Jojo Mayer fierce hats aren't hugely different from that last ride, at least in principle. Was that the inspiration for those ones Johan?

[Johan VDS]

Actually the Jojo Mayer fierce hats aren't hugely different from that last ride, at least in principle. Was that the inspiration for those ones Johan?

Actually I've been making these kind of "bumpy" cymbals long before the Sabian Jojo Mayer Fierce series came out. I didn't copy my cymbal bumps from anything I saw before.

Each huge bump you see on the Sabian Jojo Mayer Fierce cymbals is made with a single blow of a machine hammer. But each big bump on my cymbals consists of 20 to 40 very small hammerstrokes placed together, together creating one giant bump. This creates a much richer and more complex sound than the Sabian one blow/one bump system.

I hammered this Sabian AA 18" crash about 6 years ago. Recently people told me that I copied the bumpy look of the Sabian Artisans. But the Artisans didn't even exist 6 years ago :)
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Mysterious_Crash_(from_Sabian_AA).jpg

[Chip]

But each big bump on my cymbals consists of 20 to 40 very small hammerstrokes placed together, together creating one giant bump

Damn it! No wonder mine look stupid. It looks like somebody just shot it with a bb gun about 50 times. Sound hasn't really changed much either. I didn't hammer too much because I didn't know if thinning it out too much would damage it.

When hammering, should one work out from the bell?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Ahhhh right, ok. Just thought it was a similar concept, and hey, you can say Sabian stole their ideas off of you. I'm sure yours sound better, they always seem to judging by those sound clips. I just like the concept.

[Johan VDS]

you can say Sabian stole their ideas off of youHaha, I don't think Sabian every saw any of my cymbals :)

But I have to admit that making big holes in cymbals is something both Sabian and Zildjian inspired me to do. The big difference is that the sound of my "Perforation" cymbals isn't just the result of the holes but also of very extensive hammering.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

My question is this. Does putting holes in the cymbal make the tension across the whole cymbal uneven? Is that why they sound so trashy? Or am I completely barking up the wrong tree here.

[Johan VDS]

Does putting holes in the cymbal make the tension across the whole cymbal uneven? Is that why they sound so trashy? Yes that's the reason. The holes also make the cymbal open up easier at very soft playing (contrary to most china's which need heavier playing to display all of their sound and trash).

Some of the Perforations I made are excellent for soft jazzy ride-work also. The unique wash underneath accompanies the stick very well.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I was about to delete my post because I thought I'd said something stupid. Of course, a lower mass would produce a lighter hit to produce the sound, so naturally they'd open up quicker. I have no doubt that your cymbals would sound fantastic in a jazz sense. I know the new Weckl Legacy series have a perforated ride, though from what I read it's too trashy to 'really' use as a ride. You on the other hand, have probably got it right.

[ZrowBD]

hey that's some really nice work you have there! if i were you, i'd try to get a hold of Saluda. we've all heard of custom drum builders - these guys are custom cymbal makers. they'll modify any of their existing cymbals to fit every drummer's specific needs. you 2 could probably share some knowledge of cymbal-making. maybe even work together on some project we'll all be left to drool on eh? hehehehe
check em out at http://www.saludacymbals.com/

btw, i'm really impressed by your work. awsome stuff... really..

[Johan VDS]

a lower mass would produce a lighter hit to produce the sound, so naturally they'd open up quicker.If you would take two cymbals of identical size and weight, one with and the other without holes, the one with the holes would be a thicker cymbal but still it would open up quicker !
But the location of the holes plays a major role also in terms of trashiness and the ease of opening up.

The idea of the Weckl Ozone ride doesn't appeal to me because all the holes are on one side of the cymbal. This isn't a good thing for the structural integrity AND will cause the cymbal to be very much out of balance on the stand.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Well you showed me. Ha! That's cool dude, I know exactly what you're saying. They do intruige me. There's a lot of theory behind cymbal making and a lot of stuff I don't know. You are a veritable fountain of knowledge.

[Johan VDS]

You are a veritable fountain of knowledge.My wife actually calls me a fountain of noise....

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

My wife actually calls me a fountain of noise....

I feel very, very sorry for your wife Johan. Very sorry indeed, I don't envy her. Although you're a great guy. I'll stop with the sychophantics now.

[Josh is a cult]

MY TEACHER SAID I CAN TRY TO RE HAMMER MY B8 PRO CRASH IN SHOP TOMORROW!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!

[fijjibo]

i have experimented with making my own china cymbals before, and all i can say is................................................ ..mmmmmmm.....trashy!

[Chip]

Johan, how do you perforate your cymbals? I may be able to save it yet, then I can play it softer.

[Johan VDS]

Dremel, file, sandpaper !

[Rhythmist]

Johan,

GREAT POST, AND I LOVE THE CYMBALS!!!

I do have a couple questions, since I am planning this endeavor:

1. Do you heat up (oven, wood fire, etc.) the cymbal before you start hammering?
2. When hammering, should one work out from the bell?
3. With regard to the anvil - I can't find a steel diameter/sheet with the specs you described. Would a regular steel anvil work, or could you recommened/or direct me to someone I can purchase the steel anvil from?

Thanks in advance for your help :)

[Chip]

Dremel, file, sandpaper !
Damn. I thought it was a drill bit.
Anyway, which dremel bit do you use?

[Johan VDS]

1. Do you heat up (oven, wood fire, etc.) the cymbal before you start hammering?Never ! If you heat you'll ruin your cymbals.
2. When hammering, should one work out from the bell?It differs for every cymbal. Depends on the initial shaping and tensioning and on the result you want. This is something you need to learn by experience.
3. With regard to the anvil - could you recommened/or direct me to someone I can purchase the steel anvil from?A fellow member asked me the same question the past week and pointed me to THIS (http://shorinternational.com/silversmith.htm)link. The last anvil in the third row looks right.
Anyway, which dremel bit do you use?Check:http://www.dremeleurope.com/dremelocs/modules/oragetblob.dll?db=dremelocs&item=dremelocs.items&id=1973,548,32&mime=image/jpeg&maxwidth=266&maxheight=266

[Johan VDS]

Here's some new ones.


18"Complex Light Ride 1340 gr:

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Complex_Light_Ride_1340gr_(from_Ufip).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Complex_Light_Ride_1340gr_(from_Ufip).jpg




20" Light Complex Dry Jazz ride 1870gr:

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Dry_Jazz_ride_1870gr_(from_Zildji an_Avedis).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Dry_Jazz_ride_1870gr_(from_Zildji an_Avedis).jpg





20" Complex Light Jazz Ride 1850gr :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Light_Jazz_Ride_1850gr_(from_Zildjian_A vedis).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Light_Jazz_Ride_1850gr_(from_Zildjian_A vedis).jpg





And finally, a 22" Paiste Signature Power Ride, hammered and lathed into a 22,75" Extra Dark ride, 2820 gr. The very soft B15 "Paiste Alloy" allowed me to make the cymbal 0,75" larger!

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/22,75_Extra_Dark_Ride_2820gr_(from_Paiste_Signatur e_22_Power_Ride).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/22,75_Extra_Dark_Ride_2820gr_(from_Paiste_Signatur e_22_Power_Ride).jpg



Pics and soundfiles of many other cymbals on my webspace (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/) !

[Chip]

Johan, you've done it again. I like the third one the most. Very smooth, you seem to like the duo style, with unlathed parts and lathed parts. Have you ever tried modifying a Wuhan?

You need to start a proper website, that directory one does no justice to your beautiful craft. Maybe ask Berhnard for a section, hehehe.

[Rhythmist]

I can't thank you enough for all of the input you gave me regarding custom cymbals. I truly appreciate the fact that you are willing to share your craftsmanship with us.

If you don't mind, I would appreciate your input in the future once I start this endeavor.

Thank you again!!

Rhythmist :)

[Stu_Strib]

Johan,

My gear has reached the port so it should be a week until I get it. If I remember correctly, I didn't like my 20 Sabian HH Raw Dry ride (too metallic), so I'll find some sound files and try to explain the sound I'm looking for.

Instead of doing this behind the scenes, I think it would be good exposure for you to do it on here, so people can see how the process of requesting a sound happens!

Great work man!

[Johan VDS]

Ok Stu, great idea !

[joaocalminho]

Johan,

Would it be worth trying to make a flat ride from a disc of nickel silver sheet (bought from a metal supply place) and hammering? (no lathing - don't have a lathe). What hardness should one start with (half hard, 3/4 hard etc).

[Johan VDS]

Would it be worth trying to make a flat ride from a disc of nickel silver sheet (bought from a metal supply place) and hammering? (no lathing - don't have a lathe). What hardness should one start with (half hard, 3/4 hard etc).Sure ! Best take the hardest.

[Johan VDS]

Finshed some 15" jazzy hihats.


15" Light Hihats 798 845 gr

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_798_845gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).m p3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_798_845gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).j pg




15" Hihats 869 1325gr

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Hihats_869_1325gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Hihats_869_1325gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).jpg

[Sleuth]

Been very exited reading this thread. Already destroyed 1 cheap Paiste crash. I had it sounding pretty cool and that is when I probably would have been wise to stop hammering. Instead I continued hammering without sound testing and ended up with a trashcan lid, but not a good kind of trashy, more like a "chthud" sound The shape is a bit irregular, almost wavy. Is there a way to "even it back out"? Also, it literally sounds "dead". How would one go about brightening up the sound, or is this perhaps a lost cause. If so, at least I learned a little bit. Light to medium hammering, not hard. Test for sound quality frequently. I didn't have access to an avnil, so I mounted a piece of 2X10 lumber in a vice and hammered the cymbal on it. Perhaps the give of the wood created problems. Any advice or comments would be appreciated. Great Work! I am really inspired by the sounds you have squeezed out of seemingly junk cymbals.

Anyone know where to find a big ol anvil or a cheap, used lathe in St. Louis?

[Johan VDS]

Already destroyed 1 cheap Paiste crash. I had it sounding pretty cool and that is when I probably would have been wise to stop hammering. Instead I continued hammering without sound testing and ended up with a trashcan lid, ... The shape is a bit irregular, almost wavy. Is there a way to "even it back out"? Also, it literally sounds "dead". ... I didn't have access to an avnil, If you didn't crack it I could hammer it back to a decent shape and get a musical sound again, but without experience you might even make it worse. But I suggest you try anyway because you have nothing to lose. Anyhow the sound will brighten up by itself after a period of resting, but it will probably sound everybut but musical. Anyhow you need a steel anvil to work properly.

[Sleuth]

Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll wait a while and see how the sound changes then proceed, as you said I have nothing to lose. Are most anvils made out of steel, or is that more of a specialty item? As for lathes, do you think a modified drill press might work if the cymbal was tightly secured to the chuck?

[Johan VDS]

Are most anvils made out of steelYes.

As for lathes, do you think a modified drill press might work if the cymbal was tightly secured to the chuck?You can easily ruin a cymbal this way or cause metal fatigue or cracks in the cup area. The cymbal must be supported by a backing plate when lathed.

[Sleuth]

Thanks. I won't try that method then. Any stores websites you would suggest for finding a lathe large enough for a cymbal?

[Johan VDS]

I wouldn't know of any websites. Better check you local shops.

[Johan VDS]

Here's a newly finished 20" Tony Williams "Nefertiti" ride.

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Medium_Ride_2335gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedi s).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Medium_Ride_2335gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedi s).jpg

[Rhythmist]

Johan,

I was wondering how you create the "two-tone" texture on the cymbal shown above. Do you first hammer the cymbal - then lathe in a particular fashion? Also, through your experience, do cymbal rings closer together produce a different characteristic than rings lathed further apart?

Thanks,

Chris

[Johan VDS]

Generally I first lathe the cymbal to just a bit more than the desired weight. Then I hammer the cymbal in several sessions until I pretty much have the sound I want. Often I will do a second lathing after that and for many cymbals that's the end of the modification procedure.

But if I want the cymbal to sound a little more controlled than is possible with only hammering I often treat the cymbal chemically to oxidize the surface, that gives the same kind of "dryness" of an old cymbal with patina. This oxide doesn't really cause a sound change to the result of my hammering, it just adds a tiny bit of control to the cymbal.

To fine-tune this dryness I finish off with lathing some parts (rings) of the oxide away until the liveliness of sound is nicely balanced. At the same time this creates the visual effect of lathed and unlathed rings.

The nearer the lathed rings are to the edge, the more open the cymbal will sound. Whether the rings are close together or not is not so important.

But the several tonalities you hear in the cymbals are the result of very extensive and strategic hammering.

[Rhythmist]

I often treat the cymbal chemically to oxidize the surface, that gives the same kind of "dryness" of an old cymbal with patina. This oxide doesn't really cause a sound change to the result of my hammering, it just adds a tiny bit of control to the cymbal.

May I ask what chemical do you use? Can it be done with "local" chemicals from the grocery store??

Thanks,
Chris

[Chip]

^ I was also thinking that. Some sort of acid perhaps? That would probably be way too harsh.

I'll post a picture of MY re'hammered' cymbal, hehehe.
Pretty crappy job, ey?
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/Steely_Dan15/100_1202.jpg

[Johan VDS]

May I ask what chemical do you use? Can it be done with "local" chemicals from the grocery store??Since it is a very dangerous industrial chemical it would be very unwise to tell. I don't want people to get harmed.
You can't do it with chemicals from the grocery store.

[Johan VDS]

20" Smooth Jazz Ride 1980 grams

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Smooth_Jazz_Ride_1980gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis). mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Smooth_Jazz_Ride_1980gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis). jpg

[Fat Elvis]

Finshed some 15" jazzy hihats.


15" Light Hihats 798 845 gr

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_798_845gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).m p3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_798_845gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).j pg


these are some of the best sounding hats i have ever heard.... very close to the K session hats in sound, but i think these have a sweeter trashy quality to them. GOOD JOB.... you need to offer these babies to the public!

[Johan VDS]

They're available.

Just mail me HERE (drumcymb@yahoo.com).

[Johan VDS]

Here's two sets of Paiste 2002 hihats I converted into light jazzy hihats.


13" Light hats :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/13_Light_Hihats_577_775gr_(from_Paiste_2002).mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/13_Light_Hihats_577_775gr_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg





15" Light hats :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_894_924gr_(from_Paiste_2002).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_894_924gr_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg

[PreppieNerd]

What's your favorite kind of cymbal to re-create? Hats? Rides? Crashes?

[Johan VDS]

Depends on my mood. Sometimes I get up with a ride mood, sometimes with a splashy mood. Or I might have a trashy temper...

Actually, the latter often occurs to me :)

[Johan VDS]

20" Bright Medium Complex Ride 2210 grams:


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Bright_Medium_Complex_Ride_2210gr_(from_Sabian_ AA).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Bright_Medium_Complex_Ride_2210gr_(from_Sabian_ AA).jpg

[Chip]

Nice, man, I love your work. You know those 4 mini cymbals? Anyhoo, I finally got around to drilling a hole in the middle and stacked it on my crash. Doesn't cut very good, but it sounds ok for a 4"(the hole is around 1/8th of it's diameter, it's only a 10mm hole) brass splash. I should make a 6 or 8" B8 splash next time, ey? I'm gonna go price sheet bronze.

How do you hammer them so it affects the cymbal? If you take a squiz at the cymbal I did (it's the only picture of a cymbal on this page that is crap), it has the tiniest of hammer dimples. Must I cover the whole cymal in these? Different hammer? Hit harder?

[Johan VDS]

How do you hammer them so it affects the cymbal? If you take a squiz at the cymbal I did (it's the only picture of a cymbal on this page that is crap), it has the tiniest of hammer dimples. Must I cover the whole cymal in these? Different hammer? Hit harder?There's that "how to" question again which I just cannot answer without taking those cymbals in my own hands first.
Chip, you really should try all sorts of things (like those you mention) and listen how each procedure affects the sound in a different way. That's really the only way to learn. You're well on the way already.

[Chip]

I feel like the masters apprentice, haha. It's just the hammer dimples I see on yours and brand name cymbals are much larger, and don't have a mashed metal look, they have a smooth domed look.

Although I had a sledgehammer in a vice as an anvil, using a ball pein to hammer, that probably had something to do with it. Is it this, or am I just noodle-armed? Well, I'm just gonna have to go hammer them a tad more, then, shan't I? Thanks for the advice.

[Johan VDS]

the hammer dimples I see on yours and brand name cymbals are much larger, and don't have a mashed metal lookSand your hammer and anvil until they shine. Every scratch on it will be imprinted on the cymbal.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I just got around to listening to those latest sound clips.

Johan, if I'm ever in the money, I will be buying a full set of cymbals from you. You do outstanding and spectacular work. Brilliant, just brilliant.

[Johan VDS]

Thanks very much Mediocrefunkybeat !

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Just downloaded that document and your prices for re-creation are very, very reasonable. Maybe in a few years I might have some work for you, I'd like my ride to be a little lighter, nothing serious. Unfortunately right now it's out of the question, but give it some time and I might just have something for you to do.

[Stu_Strib]

Johan,

I absolutely love those 798g 15" hats! Where those 15" A's originally?

Stu

[Johan VDS]

Yes, they were 15 A's indeed..

[Sleuth]

Another question about anvils.

I have aquired a large antique iron dumbell with rounded semispherical ends. Through filing and sanding I have been able to get it quite smooth and shiny. It isn't ideal, for sure, but I believe the shape may be adequete (somewhat round, but also flattish) for use as an anvil for cymbal hammering. Yes? No? Is iron going to be too soft or hard to work with as opposed to steel? The price was right, free, so if it won't work, no big deal.

My paiste catastrophe crash is not sounding as bad as it did. You were right, it has brightened up some just in this short period of time. I think I might let it age a bit longer and then proceed to try some reshaping if my dumbell anvil idea proves to not be too ridiculous. Also, I too must say, those hats sound fantastic.

[Johan VDS]

I have aquired a large antique iron dumbell with rounded semispherical ends. Through filing and sanding I have been able to get it quite smooth and shiny. It isn't ideal, for sure, but I believe the shape may be adequete (somewhat round, but also flattish) for use as an anvil for cymbal hammering. Yes? No? Is iron going to be too soft or hard to work with as opposed to steel? .Sounds good if there's no hole in it. If it's too soft you'll soon notice by the dents :)

[Sleuth]

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

[Johan VDS]

Here's a new special effects cymbal I hammered. I called it the 18" "Ripple Trash" for obvious reasons. It's 1850 grams and has several sounds. It can be used as a china-like cymbal but also as a ride.

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/18_Ripple_Trash_1850gr_(from_Ufip).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/18_Ripple_Trash_1850gr_(from_Ufip).jpg




Also a newly hammered 24" Tony Williams ("Nefertiti") ride 2985 grams.

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/24_Dark_Complex_Ride_2985_gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis ).mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/24_Dark_Complex_Ride_2985_gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis ).jpg





Some more new cymbals, including hihats and effects, can be found on my site (cf my signature beneath).

[Chip]

The outer ring of that ripple trash looks like plastic for some reason. You like making those Tony Williams rides, don't cha? I've got 2 cymbals to re'hammer' myself, I'm going to get onto that tomorrow.

Man, I'm going to try and get Bernhard to get you a page on this site. I can picture a page full of cymbal pictures, with sound files underneath. How cool would that be. You deserve it though, you make twice as much music as the rest of us!

Would you happen to have any idea of the price of sheet bronze with tin percentages between 8 and 15? I'm searching for quotes, you may have come across it in your craft. I've emailed a place in Germany, but they haven't replied yet.

Have you done any cymbals in more exotic alloys? Like Meinl's FX9 alloy? I wonder what sounds you could get outta that alloy. Or Factory Metal's alloy? I don't know what alloy that is.......

[Sleuth]

Is this a good deal, or not?
I have the opportunity to buy an 18 in. crash and a 20 in. ride (both planet Z), $60 for the pair. I don't think that these are cast cymbals though. Any opinions as to whether I should buy them for rehammering purposes? Is it possible to ever get a good sound out of one of these, or should I save a little more and buy a used B8 ride? I've seen them around at the local shops from time to time, usually pretty reasonable (under $100). I can't wait to work on my first ride, but I don't want to rush out and buy something that doesn't stand a chance. As always, any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Johan VDS]

Would you happen to have any idea of the price of sheet bronze with tin percentages between 8 and 15? It's cheap, but you will probably have to buy large quantities.

Have you done any cymbals in more exotic alloys? Like Meinl's FX9 alloy? I wonder what sounds you could get outta that alloy.I've hammered all kinds of stuff. The best sounding alloy to me is still B20, followed by the other tin-bronze alloys, like B15, B12, B8.
FX 9 sounds a bit similar to nickelsilver and is certainly not one of my favourites :)

Is this a good deal, or not?I have the opportunity to buy an 18 in. crash and a 20 in. ride (both planet Z)They're brass and useless if you want a decent sound.
But you won't get a decent sound until you learn the skill by practicing a LOT. Which you'd better do on the cheapest cymbals around, like Planet Z.

[Chip]

It's cheap, but you will probably have to buy large quantities.
The place I emailed for a quote does any bronze in any shape. I emailed a quote for B8 (I explained B8, though) bronze, 20" discs, 1mm thick. No reply as yet.

I've hammered all kinds of stuff.
Have you tried the lower brand name lines? Such as B8's, ZXT's and XS20? Or Wuhan for that matter? I heard their alloy is impure, but with the lower lines (Sabian, Paiste etc.) they would probably use the same alloy as they do with higher lines. Are have you not yet recovered from your last cymbal-a-thon? Hehe.

I also have a place 20-30 minutes away, they have sheet brass for $100AU for 1 x 1.1m, 1mm thick I think it was. Bronze was about 30% more from memory. I will post it on here if I get some.

[Johan VDS]

Have you tried the lower brand name lines? Such as B8's, ZXT's and XS20? Or Wuhan for that matter?Sure, people often send me these to upgrade to pro-level cymbals.There are some examples of cheap B8 cymbals (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/) on my website I had to convert into jazzcymbals.


with the lower lines (Sabian, Paiste etc.) they would probably use the same alloy as they do with higher lines. Yes the B8 used for cheap cymbals is the same as that of Paiste 2002's. I can upgrade any B8 cymbal to pro-level. But don't ask me to convert a PST5 into a 2002 because 2002 is a typically machine hammered sound. I do hand-hammering which gives a different type of sound. I can make high pitched cymbals if you want but it will be a more complex tone than a 2002.

[Chip]

Cool, do they feel much different to high line cymbals? I.e; Is it harder to get a better sound out?

You should contact Sonor, they have B20 cymbals, they would probably be cheaper, too.

Any tips for making a cymbal from scratch? I want to make one from that B8 sheet, but getting it all symmetrical and perfect shaped sounds VERY hard. One thing I can remember with B8, is for less ring, aren't they to be hammered more extensively?

[Loge]

Hi, Johan

First off, thank you for sharing so many interesting facets of the cymbal making craft. So many of your works are truly satisfying in a visual/sculptural sense alone.

Simply to satisfy my own curiosity - I have two Paiste 2002 'Crashes', a 16" and a 14". The 16" functions very well - bright, full and cutting, but while the 14" is a decent sounding cymbal, it seems to have an annoying bit of "bong-iness" or "gong-iness" (for lack of a better terms) within the sustained overtones. What might be the reason for this?

Also have a 14 inch 602 top hat which I cut down to around 11.75" many years ago. While loud and splashy, it also has that "bongy" quality. Just wondering how one might modify in the interest of a clearer sound?

Thanks for any feedback. BTW, I had the pleasure of spending several days in your beautiful city not long ago. Most amazing town I've yet visited. Hope to return someday. Wonderful memories!

[Johan VDS]

Cool, do they feel much different to high line cymbals? I.e; Is it harder to get a better sound out?They're often (purposely) shaped wrong or cups can be too large, so first getting the shape right makes it more work.
One thing I can remember with B8, is for less ring, aren't they to be hammered more extensively?Yes

while the 14" is a decent sounding cymbal, it seems to have an annoying bit of "bong-iness" or "gong-iness" Can be a hammering error, too much tension, warpage or a weight problem. It can be corrected, but as said before you need to learn the skill first.

Also have a 14 inch 602 top hat which I cut down to around 11.75" many years ago. While loud and splashy, it also has that "bongy" quality. Considerably downsized cymbals have the wrong shape, tension and taper, they need to be totally rehammered into proper shape, tension and tone (and lathed).

[Johan VDS]

Some brighter cymbals now.


14" Bright Crisp Hihats 903-1130gr

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Bright_Crisp_Hihats_903_1130gr_-from_Paiste_2002.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Bright_Crisp_Hihats_903_1130gr_-from_Paiste_2002.jpg




18" Bright Dry Ride 1530gr

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Bright_Dry_Ride_1530gr_-from_Paiste_2002.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Bright_Dry_Ride_1530gr_-from_Paiste_2002.jpg

[d.c.drummer]

Dude whats your problem. Start a company1 I know a load of drummers tha would pay for mod cymbals. Or, make a video and ask Behrnard to post it.

[G-MaN91]

The place I emailed for a quote does any bronze in any shape. I emailed a quote for B8 (I explained B8, though) bronze, 20" discs, 1mm thick. No reply as yet.
.

How did you find this place and where is it? I googled cymbals blanks and bronze sheets but nothing came up. Where could I go to find this stuff?

[Johan VDS]

Here's Sabian AA 20" Crash which was very high pitched, but I hammered it into a 20" Dark Crash. Sounds like THIS (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Dark_Crash_-from_Sabian_AA.mp3) now and here's what it looks like:

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Dark_Crash_-from_Sabian_AA.jpg

[Rhythmist]

Johan,

What size of ballpeen hammer do you use when shaping the cymbal??

[finnhiggins]

Johan,

You've talked a couple of times about the fact that the major difference between brighter and darker sounding cymbals is in their design and profile.

How far from this original shape and form can you typically take a cymbal? I've got what I've finally identified as a Canadian-made 20" Zildjian A sitting here which is really not to my taste. I could sell it and get chump change for it, but I'd rather not given that it used to belong to my dad and it seems a bit rude to flog off his old stuff on the cheap. And since it's allegedly a decent cymbal at heart and I'm a total incompetent at many crafts-related things I'm loath to start hitting it with things myself. So I'm mildly considering putting it your way for a bit of work.

As it is now the cymbal is pretty much the opposite of anything I like in a piece of metal - it's quite heavy, bright, pingy and has a whole lot of really nasty prominant overtones which are sufficiently close in frequency that it produces very obvious slow "beats" at a bunch of pitches.

Am I dreaming to imagine this turning into a soft, dark, complex cymbal with a very breathy tone and rivets? Basically, how far can you take this stuff? I assume that short of melting a piece of metal down and starting again from scratch there has to be a limit somewhere as to what can be done. Is this again a function of the individual cymbals? Or are you limited to a predictable extent by the original pressing / profile?

[Johan VDS]

How far from this original shape and form can you typically take a cymbal? Very far. Definitely far enough to change it into a "soft, dark, complex cymbal with a very breathy tone". That's what I do all the time. No problem whatsoever. If you decide to send it to me, just MAIL (drumcymb@yahoo.com) me for details.



What size of ballpeen hammer do you use when shaping the cymbal??It depends on the type of sound I want to get. If I don't want too much "trash" I'll probably use a flattish hammer. But for most of my cymbals I use 3 different hammers, from flattish to round. Only the hammermarks of the rounder hammers are clearly visible.

[franklinj]

You should really look into getting your own site. It would be much easier to find details about your work and your cymbals from a site rahter than from random forums. YOu could make some serious money if people knew about you. I told my drum teacher about you and he was pretty interested, he had just never heard of anyone doing anything like this.

[Johan VDS]

Many people tell me that I should have a more attractive website. I could certainly make more money that way, but when someone wants one of my cymbals, I want to be sure it's for the cymbal, and not because of the nice website...

[Chip]

I wouldn't buy something just because it had a nice website. If I wanted it, I would get it. But a nice layout would make it easier, and look more professional, more accessable than the current URL.

By the way, I love that new AA 20" crash, it looks great, I don't care about the sound, I didn't listen to it. How much?







Just kidding, it sounds great. I listened to it for a while, lost track of what I was doing. GREAT cymbal!

[Johan VDS]

By the way, I love that new AA 20" crash, it looks great, I don't care about the sound...how much ?Then I'm not selling it to you :)



Anyway, here are two 16" "Reverse China's" I hammered from 16" crashes. "Reverse" meaning the shape of Paiste Novo, bell facing upwards, edge facing down.

Just click the names for the soundfiles.

16" Reverse China -from Bosphorus crash (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/16_Reverse_China_-from_Bosphorus_crash.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/16_Reverse_China_-from_Bosphorus_crash.jpg





16" Reverse China-from Paiste Dimensions crash (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/16_Reverse_China_-from_Paiste_Dimensions_crash.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/16_Reverse_China_-from_Paiste_Dimensions_crash.jpg

[Chip]

Reverse chinas? Is this an invention of your own? VERY nice, though. They retain a somewhat trashy element without being that harsh and bitey, they have a more smooth controlled sound. What are they like for riding? A nice dirty sound I would imagine.

Have you tried testing your cymbals with a soft felt/something soft beater? I have a very soft beater I use to test mine. I found it highlights the richer, more complex tones, allowing you to bypass the harsher stick sound, retaining a gong-like character. It allowed me to notice the rather drastic effect my otherwise non-existent hammering, it made me realise how much effect it really had. It lets me get to the deeper sounds, and more the internal character of the cymbal. Granted, I still test them with a stick so I know what I'm dealing with when I play it with the drums. I may just hammer my un-hammered (well, by me....YET!!!) cymbal tomorrow.

You should try getting a HEAP of stands, and try and write a song that utilises all of them. It'd be a fairly long song, I'd imagine.

The cymbal song (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/gavinharrisoncymbalsong.html). You might want to check that out (unless you have), I think you could make a great song with your sonic artillery. You could also make custom sounds, rather than just bought cymbals.

Very good job, again. I always enjoy new posts on this thread especially, I love the sounds you create.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Finally a "before and after" pic of a cheap 16" Headliner crash cymbal, now a professional dark thin crash:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/Headliner_16_crash_before_and_after_modification.j pg[/QUOTE]

Johan...Wowwwww....Nice work man !

How could I miss this Thread...I'm so inspired...I'm gonna buy all my Drum Instructor Old-Cymbals - and start Hammering each & everyone of them ....and go to my Father-In-Law Machine/Hardware Shop on a Sunday and see if I can get get anything done rightly ....kekekeke....Oh...This is going to be very fun.

But I love the point you make - Hammering is an Art ...Hammering to get the right Sound - Isn't that the main-work of a Master-Craftman in any Cymbals Manufacturing Company ? ... Bro Johan.

Oh gosh....this is fun and I'm gonna show my Instructor...This is your so-so-Cymbals...I just hope his Eyes doesn't Pop-Out and laugh till his dentures start flying...

[RudimentalDrummer]

Each huge bump you see on the Sabian Jojo Mayer Fierce cymbals is made with a single blow of a machine hammer. But each big bump on my cymbals consists of 20 to 40 very small hammerstrokes placed together, together creating one giant bump. This creates a much richer and more complex sound than the Sabian one blow/one bump system.

I hammered this Sabian AA 18" crash about 6 years ago. Recently people told me that I copied the bumpy look of the Sabian Artisans. But the Artisans didn't even exist 6 years ago :)
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Mysterious_Crash_(from_Sabian_AA).jpg

This might be easier for me to do for a start - One Big Bump...then hammer in small bumps.

Johan...What is "anvil" here pertaining to the Cymbal? - Which Part...Is it the Bell?

Also what is "lathe"...or "lathering the Cymbal"...sorry but could you let me know.

Thank You !

[RudimentalDrummer]

May I ask what chemical do you use? Can it be done with "local" chemicals from the grocery store??

Thanks,
Chris

Most Oxider, are Fire Hazardous Chemical or Material ..and are very dangerous (as listed in most Fire Code round the World) it's is very combustible... I had just attended a 3 month course on the Fire Safety Management in this area (at the Fire Station). Care should be well taken when using it my Bros...


Under UN Classification System (the Orange Color Book) -

Class 5 - Oxidising Substances...5.1 = which states = readily in liberating oxygen or stimulate the combustion in order material or start a fire in other material - hence increasing violence of fire

5.2 = Other kinds of Oxider are combustible and liable to explosive decomposition .

Note also...most oxider are also Corrosive substances...

regards

Eric

[Johan VDS]

Eric, I think it's unwise to post this information here. Someone out there might get VERY seriously injured if using these chemicals with less than appropriate caution. That's why I didn't respond to Rhythmists question.

If you care about people's safety, please remove that post.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Eric, I think it's unwise to post this information here. Someone out there might get VERY seriously injured if using these chemicals with less than appropriate caution. That's why I didn't respond to Rhythmists question.

If you care about people's safety, please remove that post.


I just did some admendment to it (serve as a Warning Notice) - That's much better isn't it....and Bro...as regards to my question...What is ...... Anvil? and lathering and regret for my ignorance...Thank You !

[Johan VDS]

Bro...as regards to my question...What is ...... Anvil? and lathering !Please read the whole thread from the start...all the answers are there.

[Rhythmist]

Johan,

With all due respect - I heeded your warning, and did not pursue it any further. Besides in the US, and where I live, there can be drastic consequences regarding the law.

[Sleuth]

I'm working on a ride. 20" ZBT. So far I have done about an hour or so of light hammering and it already sounds more complex with a subtle and trashy "tah". I am wondering though, when hammering a cymbal, especially rehammering, is it advisable to hammer the bottom in addition to the top? Do the professionals do this? What kind of effect will there be on the sound? I know, experiment and trial and error is the way to go, but I don't want to ruin my instrument or crack the cymbal if I am doing something incredibly foolish. Johan what is your opinion on this? Thanks.

[Johan VDS]

In most cases both top and bottom hammering are necessary to change the sound a certain way.
Next to that it matters very much how much you hammer, how hard you hammer, what type of hammer you use, whether you hammer closer to the edge or more towards the centre and last but certainly not least how the cymbal is shaped, tensioned and how the thickness varies from edge to centre.

So there are just too much variables to simply give you a guideline what to do. I could only tell you what's necessary if I could check out that cymbal myself.
Actually I hammered a number of ZBT rides and they were all different and needed a different treatment. They were all shaped a bit to very differently, probably depending on when they were made.

[Sleuth]

Thanks Johan for always making a fast reply. I guess I will experiment with hammering the bottom side as well. I see what you mean about all of the variables in the cymbal itself and the style of hammering, one really must learn by trial and error, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to wreck it. Thanks for the advice. Time to go play!

[Johan VDS]

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to wreck it. I certainly can't guarantuee you won't wreck it since you have no experience yet. That's why you need to gain experience by experimenting with cheap cymbals first. I'll leave it to you to decide whether a ZBT is cheap or not :)

[Sleuth]

I hear ya. As luck would have it this one was used and pretty cheap. Another question. How long do you let your cymbals "age" before deciding that they are ready? I'm sure that this again varies from cymbal to cymbal, and of course cymbals change sound forever as they are played, but is there sort of a rule of thumb as to the time it takes for a cymbal to reach its mature sound after aging? Months, weeks?...Decades?

I'm happy to say that I've spent some more time hammering today and the cymbal still sounds pretty good. This is great.

[Johan VDS]

is there sort of a rule of thumb as to the time it takes for a cymbal to reach its mature sound after aging?It varies from roughly a week to a couple of months, depending mainly on how and how much you hammered it.
80% of the maturing will happen in the course of the first week normally.

[Sleuth]

More time for more hammering? Well, I guess I'll let this baby age for about a month or so. It sounds good, just kind of flat or muffled, similar to the paiste crash from awhile back which now has brightened up significantly.

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 20" Paiste Traditional Medium Light Ride I completely rehammered.

Here's a "before and after" SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_Traditional_20_ML_Ride_before_and_after.mp3 )


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Jazzride_-from_Paiste_Traditional.jpg

[Chip]

I like, it's a lot less woody and seems a lot thinner. What mics do record with?

Where are the during photos?

[Fat Elvis]

Here's a 20" Paiste Traditional Medium Light Ride I completely rehammered.

Here's a "before and after" SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_Traditional_20_ML_Ride_before_and_after.mp3 )


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Jazzride_-from_Paiste_Traditional.jpg

i think it sounds good, but then again i also think the original sounded really good too. The one thing i did notice is that you seemed to lose some definition on the bell -- the bell was more pronounced on the untouched paiste... but what you did achieve was very interesting and complex. I liked it too.

[Johan VDS]

The one thing i did notice is that you seemed to lose some definition on the bell -- the bell was more pronounced on the untouched paiste.That's simply because I also made the cymbal thinner. I wanted to make a real jazzride from it, not with a "pingy" stick sound but rather a "clicky" sound.

What mics do record with?Where are the during photos?A very simple Realistic mic. No other pics taken.

[Fat Elvis]

i think you accomplished it very well -- its defenately a complex jazz ride.... great sound -- which if par for the course on ALL your cymbals.

[Chip]

The during photo's thing was a joke, from the same guy as the first thing in my signature.

The mic seems to really capture the character of the cymbal really well. The only cymbal recording on par with it that I've heard is the 101 recording on the paiste website, it sounds like they are in the room with me.

I'm stoked, I found an Australian shop that sells B20 alloy cymbals:
20" ride, 16" crash, 14" hats (got the hats), 10" splash & 12" splash, all $40AUD (That's $30US) each. That's a damn bargain, they are cheaper than Sabian B8's!!! I'm going to get the ride, do some hammering on it.

Some cheap practice to try and create some beautiful cymbals like Johan's.

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 20" Tony Williams "Nefertiti" style of ride I hammered from a Zildjian Avedis Medium Ride.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Ride_2045gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Ride_2045gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg





Also a 20" High Complex Jazz Ride, hammered from a Ufip Class Ride.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_High_Complex_Jazz_Ride_1945gr_-from_Ufip.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_High_Complex_Jazz_Ride_1945gr_-from_Ufip.jpg

[Johan VDS]

I hammered this fairly dark and powerful 17" crash (1290 grams) from a Paiste 2002 17" Crash.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/17_Medium_Crash_-from_Paiste_2002.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/17_Medium_Crash_-from_Paiste_2002.jpg




This other 17" more complex crash weighs 1170 grams and comes from a 17" Ufip Class.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/17_Dark_Crispy_Thin_Crash_-from_Ufip.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/17_Dark_Crispy_Thin_Crash_-from_Ufip.jpg

[Johan VDS]

Some re-created 15" crashes:

15" Dark Medium Crash, made from a 15" Zildjian Avedis crash.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/15_Dark_Medium_Crash_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/15_Dark_Medium_Crash_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg






15" Dark Thin Fast Crash, made from a Sabian AA 15" crash.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/15_Dark_Thin_Fast_Crash_-from_Sabian_AA.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/15_Dark_Thin_Fast_Crash_-from_Sabian_AA.jpg

[AvengedDrummer]

I have a question, you said some cymbals will sound terrible no matter how much you hammer on them. Do ZXT's fall into that category?

[Johan VDS]

No, ZXT's are B8 and are excellent for "upgrading".

[Johan VDS]

Here's a set of fairly bright 13" funky hihats I hammered from Ufip 13" hats.


SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/13_Funky_Hihats_798_912gr-from_Ufip.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/13_Funky_Hihats_798_912gr-from_Ufip.jpg

[Chip]

Wow, they sound great! Puts my freshly hammered (well, I've hammered a band of about 10 or so lathing rings on it in an hour... it's a work in progress).

Would you have any idea on where to start on making a cymbal from a bit of B15 sheet? I'm going to get some and do it, but I can't fathom how to get it perfectly flat. Is this achieved when turning it on the lathe, or is that from hammering? Great work, again.

[Johan VDS]

Is this achieved when turning it on the lathe, or is that from hammering?.Hammering. I hope that's not bad news :)




Here are two 20" Paiste B8 alloy cymbals (crash and ride) I had to convert into a 20" Ripple Trash and an 18" Radial Trash.

Here's a before and after clip of the ride, which is now a 20" Ripple trash.
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_B8_alloy_ride_before_and_after_into_20_Ripp le_Trash.mp3

Looks like this now:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_B8_alloy_ride_hammered_into_20_Ripple_Trash .jpg




Here's a before and after clip of the crash, which is now a Radial Trash.
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_B8_alloy_Crash_before_and_after_into_18_Rad ial_Trash.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_B8_alloy_Crash_hammered_into_18_Radial_Tras h.jpg

[Sleuth]

That Ripple Trash is nice! And probably one of the coolest looking cymbals too.

[Chip]

Hammering. I hope that's not bad news :)
Heh, it's bad, but I'm a wee bit better at hammering now, and I'm starting to get a flatter edge (I hammered one of my cymbals on a bad anvil, thus making the edges all stuttered), apart from one bit which can be popped back and forth by hand.

When I hammered the middle portion, there was some dipping in and out, maybe 4-5mm (an area of about 5cm square) bumps. I've seen similar indentations on Artisans and your cymbals, but it seemed a little more severe. Is this a bad thing? This might be the excessive hammering I am doing (or a few badly placed strikes), it's a lot less efficient than your work :).

[Johan VDS]

Show us some pics...

[Chip]

Ok, but don't scald me for ruining a cymbal :)!

It looks a bit weird and dirty, but I gave it a bath, hehe. I'm getting a wee bit better, though. I got really impatient because my 'anvil' was being used, to I started on a cast block, and just hammering it upside-down... silly move.

Photobucket is being a pain... (it's saying that my jpeg...isn't a jpeg)
Ok, scrap that idea.... (tried to attach them).

7036

I'm getting this... any help?

[Sleuth]

Can't wait to see those pics, Chip. It sounds like your project is really coming along.

Johan, how important is a flat edge on a ride cymbal, in your opinion? I realize that it will change the sound if it is wavy, but if it is just slightly dipping in and out here and there, (like the ride I'm working on currently) is that going to make a huge difference in the overall sound? Is a perfect, or at least uniform, circular edge needed for a cymbal to sound musical? What is the best way to straighten it out if I am using a semi-round anvil besides of course buying an anvil that is more suitable for the job? I'm using the polished iron dumbell mounted in a large vise, and so far it is working pretty well for most aspects of hammering.

[tta]

Neeevermind, I see that you do work with hihats. Nice stuff! I may sometime contact you about "recreating" my cymbals (Sabian Pro Sonix) they seem like they would be a perfect candidate for your work!

[Johan VDS]

Johan, how important is a flat edge on a ride cymbal, in your opinion? .....It all depends what caused the edges to be wavy.

Is a perfect, or at least uniform, circular edge needed for a cymbal to sound musical? If that would be the case, most of the old K's or modern Turkish cymbals would be unmusical.

Still I always go for a correct circular shape myself, which also implies a flat edge, unless I make a ripple trash of course. Quite a bit of cymbals are not perfectly round like Turkish or old Italian cymbals.

What is the best way to straighten it out That depends on how you hammered it and if you hammered it correctly or not. I could only tell if I could grab the cymbal myself and check the shape and tension distribution.

[Sleuth]

I think I see what you're saying. I worked on it a bit last evening and tried to concentrate on reshaping the edge. I also found a spot where the metal had softened (maybe?) too much perhaps from overhammering, but I was able to round the profile back out. It had kind of caved in. Actually, if I really tried I could pop it in and out, but by experimenting I was able to make the area actually feel strong again. Can hammering reharden metal? Is that kind of what you mean by tension? I'm really wondering what this thing is going to sound like after it ages some more. Even if it is a garbage can, thats ok. I'm learning by trial and error and having fun.

[Johan VDS]

Tension and hardness are different things.

Hammering hardens the metal. But hammering can either stiffen or loosen the tension depending on how you hammer.

[Sleuth]

Thank you for clearing that up. Very interesting stuff. So after you are finished hammering a cymbal and it ages, that is the metal softening again?

[Johan VDS]

No, it's recristallizing, meaning the molecules settle down from the hammering. If you want to hammer a cymbal a lot, you should divide the hammering over several days so the metal can recristallize in between hammering sessions.

[Sleuth]

Very interesting. How did you learn about this kind of stuff, the science of what is really going on in the metal itself? Any books you can recommend on metalworking?

So, in recrystalizing, the metal's molecules are reforming bonds and connecting back together. Is it kind of a lattice structure like some other compounds? I'm trying to remember this stuff from chemistry class back in school. Fascinating stuff.

The tensioning of the metal then, how does that come into play? Would you say it is like the stiffness of the material? I guess an even tension all around is probably desired?

I hope I'm not bugging you too much with all these questions. :) Thanks.

[Chip]

Ok. I changed the format to bmp. and they work now. The original JPEGs stuffed up somehow....

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/Steely_Dan15/untitled.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/Steely_Dan15/2-1.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/Steely_Dan15/3.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/Steely_Dan15/4.jpg

A crappy job (a discredit to the page, really), but a guy's allowed to try, right? It doesn't sound too bad, I'm going to do some more on it through the week after I finish some more important things off.

[Johan VDS]

You're almost there Chip ! :)


Very interesting. How did you learn about this kind of stuff, the science of what is really going on in the metal itself? Any books you can recommend on metalworking?My knowledge is mostly empirical, but the recristallizing thing is basic metallurgy, just google for it.

So, in recrystalizing, the metal's molecules are reforming bonds and connecting back together.Yes

The tensioning of the metal then, how does that come into play? Would you say it is like the stiffness of the material? I guess an even tension all around is probably desired?Well tension is...just tension. The more tense, the stiffer it feels. Even tension all around is very important. Not for a Zildjian Crash of Doom/Transformer of course, but that's really a purposely incorrectly made cymbal. I find it better to make trashy cymbals with uniform tension around.



Anyway, here's a very Tony Williams-like 24" Dark Complex Jazzride I just finished for a Dutch drummer...

Before and after SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Zildjian_K_24_before_and_after.mp3)

[Chip]

You're almost there Chip ! :)
Really? I thought it was and "eh..." job. Still, I better go do some more on it through the week. Got a lot of stuff to do, though...

[Johan VDS]

Really? Eh...






not really :)

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 20" Complex Extra Light Ride (1635 grams) which I made from a Zildjian Avedis.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Extra_Light_Ride_1635gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Extra_Light_Ride_1635gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg

[Dan Den Drummer]

First of all : Congratulations for your work !!!!
The thing I wonder about is, why those cymbals don't break with this hitting.
I don't know much about, but I imagine, that this is more brute force put on the cymbals than normal playing on. So why does my cymbals break while playing normal on them ??

[Johan VDS]

Hammering exerts a completely different kind of force on a cymbal than playing it.
If you hammer correctly and the point of striking is well supported by the anvil, the metal will be compressed and expanded by the hammer blows but will not break.

But if you play hard or wrong you're actually ripping the metal apart.

[lil will]

cant believe im the first person to ask this, could you put up a pic of your kit and cymbals?? with sound clips for them, im very interested on what yours soundlike when you make such good cymbals for everyone else!!!

[Johan VDS]

cant believe im the first person to ask thisActually you're not :) http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=139777&postcount=109

Anyway, below is a more recent pic. Besides my custom cymbals I also play a snaredrum I built myself from sheets of high grade Finnish Birch.

HERE's (http://jojo.byethost32.com/JOJO_live/)a recording of a concert I did with a guitarist. It's one piece of largely improvised music. Sound quality isn't too good, it was recorded with a tape recorder. If you download all 22 mp3's to your harddisk (by right-clicking and saving) and then play them in the correct order, you'll hear the whole concert.

Then there are 2 little videoclips of me doing a drumsolo. The first one dating from 2002 is in the above link. The second one is only a few weeks old:

Solo from 2006 (http://jojo.byethost32.com/drumsolo.rm)

All the cymbals you hear are my more rock oriented custom cymbals.

[lil will]

thaks...playing is awesome cymbals are awesome and that snare sounds nice to! you must save a fortune, but i suppose its time consuming, is it your buissness or just money making hobby??....and now i look a lil stupid to, thanks! :)

[Johan VDS]

Chip is desperately trying to get me to make some profit :)



Here's some beginner's B8 alloy Meinl MCS cymbals I upgraded. Same thing can be done with any other (cheap) B8 alloy cymbals.


A 16" Meinl MCS crash hammered into a 16" dark crash:

Before and after SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/Meinl_16_MCS_crash_before_and_after_into_Dark_Cras h.mp3)



A Meinl 20" Meinl MCS ride, now a 20" Perforation Trashride

Before and after SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/Meinl_20_MCS_ride_now_Perforation_Trashride.mp3)

[Johan VDS]

Finished some hihats:

14" Complex Hihats 887-974gr-from Zildjian Avedis


SOUNDFILE (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Complex_Hihats_887_974_gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Complex_Hihats_887_974_gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg







14" Dark Heavy Hihats -from Paiste 2002


SOUNDFILE (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Dark_Heavy_Hihats_from_Paiste_2002.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Dark_Heavy_Hihats_from_Paiste_2002.jpg

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 7" bell cymbal I hammered from a flat B20 bronze alloy disc. (I've also shaped the cup by cold-hammering.)
It's shape is similar to that of a china, so it's perfect for reversed mounting (cup facing down) on top of another cymbal.

It kinda screams, so I called it the Yell Bell.

SOUNDFILE (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/7_Yell_Bell.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/7_Yell_Bell.jpg

[michael1987]

nice work, going to try this on my old cymbals, never thought of this, i work in an engineering business,work on a lthe everyday, ill put them on the lathe an take a few thou off then start hammering!!thanks for the idea!gotta load off sheet bronze at work as well, going to attempt my own new hi hats as well.mick