the Dualist debate...

[hotsauce3n]

I saw this pedal with three beaters, and i was wondering if anyone has it or if it does a good job of compensating for the real double bass, or actually makes the job of playing double bass rolls easier?

[Funkydrummy]

i saw it, but seriously if you play it, it sounds like a machine gun

[NUTHA JASON]

i wouldn't really admit to it if i did.

hah!
j

[Funkydrummy]

to have an idea
http://www.theduallist.com/mmedia/video.html

;-)

[chino_Ocio]

god! I hate that pedal... if you want to cheat... that's ok, but this one is not for me, i'd rather practice 5000 hours to get to those speeds, than buying this pedal....

[Funkydrummy]

well if you think, that's not cheating! I mean it's a tool and technology is designed to make life easier! thousand of years ago, the first men will spend hours putting a fire, now with just matches, it's easier! is that cheating? :-/

Rigel

[NUTHA JASON]

but building a fire is hardly as creative and artistic as laying down solid drum parts. a lever glide high hat pedal, remote high hats, the vruk pedal... these are nor cheating. the dualist just grrr.... just grrrrrr... well i won't swear but you get the idea. does any pro endorse it? not that i know of.

j

[Milo]

but building a fire is hardly as creative and artistic as laying down solid drum parts. a lever glide high hat pedal, remote high hats, the vruk pedal... these are nor cheating. the dualist just grrr.... just grrrrrr... well i won't swear but you get the idea. does any pro endorse it? not that i know of.

j

I disagree w/ that logic. I'm sure some people thought of those things as cheating back in the day. What I do agree with is that it looks like a pretty stupid product and I would never pay for one. I'd rather build up my chops the good ol' fashioned way.

[hotsauce3n]

god! I hate that pedal... if you want to cheat... that's ok, but this one is not for me, i'd rather practice 5000 hours to get to those speeds, than buying this pedal....

i would definately agree...

[Tyrnox]

I woudn't even get near that pedal, it took me years to get to where I am with my basedrum speed and control, and if I had a chance to get to where I am now with a pedal like that, I wouldn't even think of it.

Besides, it's more rewarding this way :)

[chino_Ocio]

it took me years to get to where I am with my basedrum speed and control, and if I had a chance to get to where I am now with a pedal like that, I wouldn't even think of it.

Besides, it's more rewarding this way :)

Cheers, man!!! I totally agree with that

[finnhiggins]

I disagree w/ that logic. I'm sure some people thought of those things as cheating back in the day. What I do agree with is that it looks like a pretty stupid product and I would never pay for one. I'd rather build up my chops the good ol' fashioned way.

My thinking is.. if it makes it easier to make a sound that is musically appropriate, then cool, I'm all for it.

I mean, why do we use pedals at all? Why not just kick the drum with your shoe?

That said, I can't think of many musical uses for a double pedal so I've no idea why I'd want one of these things either :)

As for pros endorsing... I swear I've seen somebody on a DVD showing off their Duallist technique. Maybe it was Thomas Lang? Whoever it was, they were playing 16th notes on a woodblock and playing over the top of it. Didn't sound very good to me, to be honest.

[DogBreath]

Why not just kick the drum with your shoe?
I only do that when I'm really mad.

[Breadmonkey]

So whats the general feeling on Sonor's Giant step pedal then?

I wouldn't use it at all but my drum teacher plays speed metal so with the right technique he can achieve phenominal speeds without putting out as much energy.

[NUTHA JASON]

finnhiggins:

As for pros endorsing... I swear I've seen somebody on a DVD showing off their Duallist technique. Maybe it was Thomas Lang? Whoever it was, they were playing 16th notes on a woodblock and playing over the top of it. Didn't sound very good to me, to be honest.

actually thomas uses a sonor pedal and that takes skill because, like the vruk it means you have to play with your toes and your heel. the dualist is just a cheap three strokes for the price of one. my roland TD8k has a drum solo kit where if i hit a tom it fires 8 times in quick succession. it is fun and makes me look like eight times the drummer i am, but i will never use it on stage. it is a total gimmick.

and milo, i don't think people thought of a lever glide or a remote hat as cheating. they saw those developements as evolutions and refinements. the dualist is clearly a plastic gimmick get fast quick thing. when will it end?
here?
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/joke.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/?)

[hotsauce3n]

So whats the general feeling on Sonor's Giant step pedal then?
.

I have the giantstep foot pedal and i also have the double which attaches on, i hardly use the double cause it is so rarely used in music (mainly soloing and metal)... but it has served as a great pedal and it is easily removed with the side lever.

not only that they give you a whole bag to carry it in so i can acrry my double bass pedal with me in a carry pack if i needed to(i dont), but its still pretty cool... i would recommend this pedal to any drummer.

[drumzalicious]

i personally dont think its cheating i think its just a way to be even lazier as drummers.

[Mcot2]

its not cheating at all, and I plan to get one when I have the cash. You guys are all mad because I will be able to play the same as you, yet twice as slow, and still have a free foot. I know it hurts, but get over it.

[JW89]

personally i hate the dualist, i dont care if you use one, but if your going to use one, dont expect to get as much credit as guys who use regular double pedals hence single pedals, and dont get cocky about how fast u can get with a dualist (lars ulrich), cuz its easy as hell to get speed with dualists. we dont care if u can play just as fast as we can with a dualist, because your not, ur feet arent moving as fast as are feet, ure just getting a faster sound and being lazy at the same time.isnt technology great?! haha jk, next thing you know, there gonna be making sticks that branch off into 2 ends so u can can play faster, lmao... if u wanna get fast, take the time and practice to get fast. dont get a dualist and cheat at it.

[Stevis]

god! I hate that pedal... if you want to cheat... that's ok, but this one is not for me, i'd rather practice 5000 hours to get to those speeds, than buying this pedal....

I agree with you partly that it's kinda the easy way out of learning to do bouble bass really fast. I think though that it might have some advantages of it, not sure what, but might have some cool things it can do.

But I think the original dualists was a much better idea. I think if the price wasn't so high more people would have bought it. I know two people who like it because you can do double bass, but still at some hi-hat foot while doing double bass stuff, to give it some more stucture, which makes perfect sense to me.

[finnhiggins]

personally i hate the dualist, i dont care if you use one, but if your going to use one, dont expect to get as much credit as guys who use regular double pedals hence single pedals, and dont get cocky about how fast u can get with a dualist (lars ulrich), cuz its easy as hell to get speed with dualists. we dont care if u can play just as fast as we can with a dualist, because your not, ur feet arent moving as fast as are feet, ure just getting a faster sound and being lazy at the same time.isnt technology great?! haha jk, next thing you know, there gonna be making sticks that branch off into 2 ends so u can can play faster, lmao... if u wanna get fast, take the time and practice to get fast. dont get a dualist and cheat at it.

I don't get this attitude. If it makes the same sound, why do you get so aggro about it because you choose to take the harder approach? I wouldn't use either, because I really can't see a use for faster bass drum stuff than I can learn with a single pedal. But if you're keen on that "lots of kick" sound, why not use a pedal if it gives the same result for less effort?

I mean, if you've got a valid complaint like "The second stroke always sounds too quiet" or "It limits your ability to play any line you like because it insists on playing lots of strokes every time you move your foot" or something then great, but just saying "Oh, that's the lazy approach" is pretty odd. This is music, not WFD - if you can get the same sonic results in a lazier way then I'm all for it, because it gives you more time to worry about music and co-ordination and less time wasted on working on blazing double kick, no?

That is, unless you're just playing double-kick as part of some kind of competition to see who has the fastest feet, but you people keep assuring me that it actually has a musical purpose...

[JW89]

I don't get this attitude. If it makes the same sound, why do you get so aggro about it because you choose to take the harder approach? I wouldn't use either, because I really can't see a use for faster bass drum stuff than I can learn with a single pedal. But if you're keen on that "lots of kick" sound, why not use a pedal if it gives the same result for less effort?

I mean, if you've got a valid complaint like "The second stroke always sounds too quiet" or "It limits your ability to play any line you like because it insists on playing lots of strokes every time you move your foot" or something then great, but just saying "Oh, that's the lazy approach" is pretty odd. This is music, not WFD - if you can get the same sonic results in a lazier way then I'm all for it, because it gives you more time to worry about music and co-ordination and less time wasted on working on blazing double kick, no?

That is, unless you're just playing double-kick as part of some kind of competition to see who has the fastest feet, but you people keep assuring me that it actually has a musical purpose...

i see wat ur saying man, it just pisses me off when guys get a big head, and recieve credit about speed when there using dualists while other people get the same results by simply practicing. I totally understand what your saying when your talking about sound issues, i even said, "if u wanna use one i dont care, just dont get cocky" what makes me mad is when people get cocky about there speed. Basically im saying, its an easy way out to get bragging rights, and i think thats fu**ed up. Even if you are talented just by practicing, its not cool to brag about your talent, it shouldnt be about that. Its all about feeling the groove, and doing whatever you want to do to satisfy yourself, it shouldnt be about "i can play faster than this guy." thats the wrong attitude, and too many people have that attitude about there playing.

[Mcot2]

Why do you get offended when people brag about speed? Does it matter? No, in the end it doesn't. The dualist is an engineering marvel, and I am shocked that noone thought of this idea before.

Plus, with the dualist, you can work in hihat, and even triple bass paterns, which can be more time well spent.

Think about it, all those hours you wasted trying to get your double bass chops up could have been spent on laying down some nasty double bass/hithat grooves or accented double bass grooves.

[JW89]

yea i guess your right about the pedal, but bragging still makes me angry. if u misunderstood, im saying it makes me angry when people that arent fast brag about being fast (due to the special pedal), because they really arent doing anything fast with their feet. but still, braggin in general always has pissed me off, theres a difference between being confident about your playing, and saying "im better than that guy" thats the kinda stuff that makes me mad, cuz in my opinion music shouldnt be about who you are/arent better than. i just dont think it should be about that, thats all.

[rendezvous_drummer]

i personally dont think its cheating i think its just a way to be even lazier as drummers.

I agree. What's with the laziness going around these days. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO HARD WORK?? I'd rather practice me ars off for hours on a single pedal so that i dont have to rely on that joke.

[finnhiggins]

I agree. What's with the laziness going around these days. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO HARD WORK?? I'd rather practice me ars off for hours on a single pedal so that i dont have to rely on that joke.

What happened to hard work? It became the required baseline standard, that's what. In order to be a "good" drummer these days you've got to have great time, consistent technique, good understanding of a wide range of music...

Arguably, the bar for drumset playing has never been as high as it is today. And for some styles, the bar just for kick drum playing is above what many professional players from the 60s could do with their hands! So if people are being lazy in their attempts to use technology to get up to baseline level, all power to them - there's still a million things they'll never have time to learn. Drumming has got so big today that no one drummer can master all of it, so any tools that are available to speed up what we can do have to be a good thing, right?

[Funkydrummy]

hey guys!

well it seems that there is a group who swear for that pedal and another one against it!

first of all if you think of a double pedal! it's also like cheating, coz I saw people doing with one pedal what you can do with a double one!
I cannot afford a double pedal, so I try really hard to use one pedal to do the job of a double!
-----> so if you use a double pedal, you need to step back a little bit, thinking that "hard work" as mentioned above is not something you're practically doing!

well you'll tell me it's already hard work to get a double pedal to work efficiently and with power! and I'll say "YES" you're rigth!
but don't you also think it will take time and practice to get use to that dualist pedal??!?

if you're used to hit double on one note! what do you think your feet is going to do with that pedal the first time? well it's going to hit twice by reflex! and what will happen if you hit twice with a dualist pedal?? -----> boumboumboumboum "and that's not drums anymore, it's a machine gun"

anyway guys.... just to say that this is a lost figth! if someone wants to use that dualist, then he goes for it!
we play drums to serve the music and if things can help serve the music, then what is the problem!
or is drums for you the way to show your power and strength! then go to the war and show that you're a hero!

God bless,

Rigel

[kazzman]

Think about it, all those hours you wasted trying to get your double bass chops up could have been spent on laying down some nasty double bass/hithat grooves or accented double bass grooves.

Which is exactly why you place the hihat next to the second bass pedal...

If you have to use a dualist pedal, imo, you've just lost any credibility I might have had for you.

[Mcot2]

Do I care if a stranger has no credibility for me? No, because i don't care if anyone does. I play drums for the music, the sound... not for building speed and wasting time. If theres an easier way to achieve a sound I want, I'm going to take it, no doubt. I could care less about what others think.

You listen to music and drums for the sound, and if it sounds good to you, you like it. Playing drums for the technique and the speed is a waste of time because thats not what they are designed for.

Yes technique and speed may help you achieve a better sound, but if a better sound can be achieved with less technique and speed, then by all means take that route.

[Funkydrummy]

Do I care if a stranger has no credibility for me? No, because i don't care if anyone does. I play drums for the music, the sound... not for building speed and wasting time. If theres an easier way to achieve a sound I want, I'm going to take it, no doubt. I could care less about what others think.

You listen to music and drums for the sound, and if it sounds good to you, you like it. Playing drums for the technique and the speed is a waste of time because thats not what they are designed for.

Yes technique and speed may help you achieve a better sound, but if a better sound can be achieved with less technique and speed, then by all means take that route.

I think he's got a point here!
as i said before it's all about what you expect from your drums! serving the music or just showing off the power?!?
well everybody does as we wish! for sure I do not have the budget for that pedal! eheheh

[darkcherryfade]

A double pedal is not cheating. You can do tons of things that you can't do with a single pedal, although I do feel that double pedal players should be able to do all that single-foot double bass stuff with each foot too.

[finnhiggins]

Which is exactly why you place the hihat next to the second bass pedal...


I'd love to see you explain exactly how one goes about playing any open-closed hi-hat line with the left foot while also executing any other line with the double pedal at the same time. It might just about be possible with a combination of playing with heels, toes and stomping both pedals at once... but you'll never get a particularly clean or consistent hi-had sound out of it, that's hard enough with a dedicated foot for the task.

Also, it's a very large amount of work to get the chops for that down. What's the return on investment?

[PearlDrummer014]

if you own this then you are cheating. build up your skills on one foot b4 you go for a double but NEVER buy this BS.

[largo61]

It may or may not be cheating(it is) but that is not the point. It takes away from skill. No good, self respecting drummer would touch it. It is basicly admitting that you can't and are not willing to try to go that fast. I would compare this to steroids in baseball. Some people don't think it is cheating. Everyone says it is an unfair advantage(the definition of cheating). It is not right to use a pedal like that.

[finnhiggins]

It may or may not be cheating(it is) but that is not the point. It takes away from skill. No good, self respecting drummer would touch it. It is basicly admitting that you can't and are not willing to try to go that fast. I would compare this to steroids in baseball. Some people don't think it is cheating. Everyone says it is an unfair advantage(the definition of cheating). It is not right to use a pedal like that.

This isn't a sport. This is music. Is it "cheating" to use electronics and a sampler so I can play chinese festival drums on my kit when I want to? I mean, I could just buy one (for about the price of a new snare drum) and put it out next to my floor tom, then leap up and play it before sitting down again?

Is it cheating to use hot-rods to play quietly rather than spending years learning how to pull off a mean groove at pp dynamic using sticks? It can be done, after all.

Possibly in both cases, if you want to turn drumming into some kind of contest. But there's a limit to how much time any given musician has to practice, and if you're the kind of person for whom double kick is not a major priority *but* you do have some occasional use for one if somebody asks for a burst of kick drum and cymbals somewhere... Maybe this would do the job, no? Should this person learn to play double kick? My answer would be probably not, unless they've got time to spare.

I mean, how many of you people drive manual cars? Or stick-shift, as it seems to get called in the US.. I do, and I like it a lot. But on the other hand, is it "cheating" to drive to work in an automatic? Not really. It gets the job done.

The difference between a good drummer and a bad drummer is not how they manage to hit things with their feet, it's what the music they play sounds like. "Cheating" in my eyes would be doing something like miming to a tape or using ProTools to correct your dodgy snare drum backbeat timing. You shouldn't have to do either of those if you aspire to be a great musician, but I don't see why using a pedal like this would be any kind of obstacle unless there's no way to prevent it constantly firing off double or triple strokes. That would certainly be a good reason to avoid the pedal, but not because it's easier than spending years training your feet for crying out loud...

[hotsauce3n]

I'd love to see you explain exactly how one goes about playing any open-closed hi-hat line with the left foot while also executing any other line with the double pedal at the same time. It might just about be possible with a combination of playing with heels, toes and stomping both pedals at once... but you'll never get a particularly clean or consistent hi-had sound out of it, that's hard enough with a dedicated foot for the task.

Also, it's a very large amount of work to get the chops for that down. What's the return on investment?


Believe it or not (ripleys) there are artists who put their left foot on there highhat and double bass, playing the high hat with heel and bass pedal with toes(done in thomas langs giant step demo video).

i have mainly only seen it done by lang because he utlizies sonors heel toe pedal and he has that techinique down...i dont really think its neccessary its too much technicality, but i would love to have that skill

[finnhiggins]

Believe it or not (ripleys) there are artists who put their left foot on there highhat and double bass, playing the high hat with heel and bass pedal with toes(done in thomas langs giant step demo video).

i have mainly only seen it done by lang because he utlizies sonors heel toe pedal and he has that techinique down...i dont really think its neccessary its too much technicality, but i would love to have that skill

I've seen that Lang video, and IIRC he's either playing very small, heavy hi-hats (no obvious change in tone with change with changes in foot pressure) or he's cross-stepping and not playing those hats with the hands. Or he's not doing much with the hats beyond fully open and fully closed. Most people I've seen playing both hats and double pedal at the same time tend to lose some of the expressive capability in their hi-hat foot, which is obvious really considering how much else they're doing with it. I'd love to see somebody playing double kick well while controlling a half-open hi-hat between a couple of opening widths during a groove, that's hard enough with just one foot.

I could certainly see an advantage to the Dualist pedal if it enabled you to keep all that expressive control in the hi-hat foot while still getting very quick stuff from your other foot. It might make for some very tasty grooves.

[Mario Vincent]

Bottom line, its an easier means to a difficult end. It's not cheating, but your cheating yourself by taking the short cut.

A few other points:

One: I've never tried it but it seems like it takes some technique so I think it deserves some respect.

Two: As far as the double bass is cheating argument goes, that’s ridiculous, and I don’t even use a double bass. If you think its cheating to use both your legs than why don’t you play with one arm, you can do a one handed roll cant you?

Three: If you use the dualist that’s fine, but at least be up front about it.

[jamndrummer]

Sounds interesting, although I will never use it. Remember Steve Gadd did some latin stuff using 4 sticks and that gave the song a different sound, so why not try it for sound.

[largo61]

Believe it or not (ripleys) there are artists who put their left foot on there highhat and double bass, playing the high hat with heel and bass pedal with toes(done in thomas langs giant step demo video).

i have mainly only seen it done by lang because he utlizies sonors heel toe pedal and he has that techinique down...i dont really think its neccessary its too much technicality, but i would love to have that skill

I actually know how to do that. I don't use it very often but I do it. It is eay for me because I have a Pearl Elliminator pedal and I can get the pedals really close together.

[Damon Dapper]

Triplepedals are a turn off to me, its like cheating your way through. Why not make a machine to give you a third drumstick while your at it.

Those pedals are for those who need a machine to help them achieve something other serious Drummers do with some practice on double pedals.

Triplepedals.

What a joke!

Dap.

[DTHdrummer]

When I first seen the triple kick pedal in my Musician's Friend magazine, my initial reaction was "Are you serious?" not "I have to have this!". I do consider this to be a level of cheating but nothing crazy. I'm interested in trying to out to see how it works but I'm for sure keeping the tradition double bass over the triple kick. Sure you have to practice your chops more, but isn't that what drumming is all about.

[Guiat0001]

All those that dont like this pedal your wrong for hating it its actually a really good in the normal double bass too !! the triple is just for funnn !!!!! which is what music is about loosers ! and the only reason you mokking it is coz you dont have the money to just go out n buy it sooo:p

anyway i have this pedal and to be honest its easier to use it in the normal double bass way ?? but its really fun honest !

[SamPT]

Well, I must say I agree with finnhiggins. It's not about cheating or not, it's just if it sounds good to you and if you're enjoying what you're doing.
I've started playing 10 years ago with a hardcore band, and I naturally evolved to a double kick pedal, but I soon got stuck with a style I wasn't linking at all. So the first thing I did was dropping the double kick pedal and bought a single one again, because I get more fun playing a single kick and I don't like getting addicted to double kick (and I didn't forget I had a hi hat pedal too!). Above all, I think I should get pleasure from playing drums (and if possible, pleasure for who is listening to me too), and I don't care for competitions...
Nowadays I play trip hop, and despite being much slower than what I used to play ten years before, I think I get more pleasure out of it (specially hearing it afterwards!).
So whether if you like dualist, double or single kick, don't say you're better or worse than everyone else... Think of it much like people are deifferent and enjoy different things...

Well, sorry about the lecture (and my rusty english). :)

[CartersChops]

Well, as far as metal drumming is concerned, it is almost a pasttime to see how fast the drummer's feet can go. It is an honorable thing as a metal durmmer to be at the highest speed possible. In that case, the dualist is a disgrace. i do think however in any other form of music, where steady stream of double bass is not needed, it's fine and can add creative touch to claves, triplets, etc.. When in a studio its about sound not how you make it. A drummer never showcases his feet outside of metal drumming really, so the duallist would possibly be acceptable, however i would never use one, out of pure shame :)

[mediocrefunkybeat]

All those that dont like this pedal your wrong for hating it its actually a really good in the normal double bass too !! the triple is just for funnn !!!!! which is what music is about loosers ! and the only reason you mokking it is coz you dont have the money to just go out n buy it sooo:p

anyway i have this pedal and to be honest its easier to use it in the normal double bass way ?? but its really fun honest !

Pretty heavy for a first post...

As for what Finn said about using the double AND hi-hat at the same time; it's a pretty easy thing to do. I used to do it when I actually used my double pedal; which is currently being used only as a single. It took a little while to get used to, but it worked ok. Just looked a bit strange having your size 9's over two different footboards.

[NouveauCliche]

I'm for anything that can further the possibilities of what a drummer can do. This whole "cheating" thing seems elitist and close minded. What's the harm in further expanding someone's sound? The Dualist triple kick or the single dualist is just another weapon in our sonic arsenal as far as I'm concerned.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

Personally, I'm a bit against it; but that's just an attitude I can't stop. What does annoy me slightly is that there is a drummer where I live who says he has great double chops; and when you listen to record, he does have some good chops.

But he's using a duallist. One gig, he reportedly had a 'normal' double pedal and he couldn't play it, it was messing up his chops. Now I'm all for technical innovation, but if it prevents you from being able to play something then I think there is an argument to say that it could be a bad thing.

I think we should be able to play all different types of pedal. For instance, if we were to work up both our feet to a level where we were reasonable with a double pedal and then get a duallist, I wouldn't be so anti, and yes, it does add a fresh level of possibilities; which when used appropriately could be considered musical.

But if it makes you technically deficient in an area in which you would otherwise be superior, then I think that it could be deemed a bad thing. If you can't use your left foot, then what would the point in having a duallist be? Assuming the whole point of a duallist is to be able to play your left foot on the hi-hat. See where I'm going?

[PearlDrummer014]

[post deleted by admin.]



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[Bad Drummer]

personally i hate the dualist, i dont care if you use one, but if your going to use one, dont expect to get as much credit as guys who use regular double pedals hence single pedals, and dont get cocky about how fast u can get with a dualist (lars ulrich), cuz its easy as hell to get speed with dualists. we dont care if u can play just as fast as we can with a dualist, because your not, ur feet arent moving as fast as are feet, ure just getting a faster sound and being lazy at the same time.isnt technology great?! haha jk, next thing you know, there gonna be making sticks that branch off into 2 ends so u can can play faster, lmao... if u wanna get fast, take the time and practice to get fast. dont get a dualist and cheat at it.

I have actually seen that. It was a performer on the street at bumbershoot (Seattle music festival). I wasn't sure if he made them himself, because I didn't get a look at the middle (to see if they crossed or were attached together somehow, or if they branched out).

I've been playing drums for about 11 months. I'm actually going to buy one now because of you saying that. Seriously, I am thinking about getting one, but it seems that it would be too constricting because you have to switch between double and single, and the way I would like to use a double pedal would call for a lot of variations between singles and doubles.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

I went and got an early Christmas present today, along with a hi-hat jingle I got a DW 5000 single pedal. I've decided that I'd rather have an excellent right foot than two mediocre feet. I'm for the Duallist if your left foot can still use the hi-hat, but using it as a reason to not develop your left foot is a bit of a cop out IMO.

[finnhiggins]

As for what Finn said about using the double AND hi-hat at the same time; it's a pretty easy thing to do. I used to do it when I actually used my double pedal; which is currently being used only as a single. It took a little while to get used to, but it worked ok. Just looked a bit strange having your size 9's over two different footboards.

Heh, coming back to this very late... Although you can get *some* degree of hi-hat control by cross-stepping, there's no doubt you do lose some expressive capability by having the left foot shared over two pedals. You can't easily control "sloshyness percentage" while playing half-open hi-hats very well, because the movement of the other end of your foot tends to cause you to move about a little. Likewise for playing things like splashes where you splash and then leave the hats half-closed for quicker decay and more sizzle.

So if you're the kind of person who does that stuff and wants to keep doing it while playing a lot of bass drum (can't exactly see why - they seem somewhat opposed in terms of playing style - but maybe some genius can make it work) then a Duallist would be an invaluable tool to help achieve that. Opening new doors, all that malarky.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

And I agree with you, there are situations where one of those pedals would be applicable. For my money though; I'd personally go with the Sonor Dual action pedal Thomas Lang uses/has used.

[h3lli0N]

the dualist pedals. fun to play with, but you don't get as much credit. i think it would be fun to have (as a toy), but never to use at a drumoff or something. imagine you being at a drumoff. there is one dude using IC (me) he is amazing.lol now there is another dude (cheater) using the dualist. who would you vote for?

besides it is kind of cheating because you have two hands (sticks) and two feet (pedals), right? the sticks are your hands the pedals are your feet. you don't have three feet. besides its possible to reach those speeds with two feet anyways. and you gain way more skill and props doing it the oldschool way.

p.s.- i would buy it though, just to have fun.

[dasilvs]

IT IS NOT CHEATING PEOPLE!

Go to JoJo Mayer's page and watch him use upstrokes with his hands and feet. That is all the Deallist is exploiting, the fact that one can achieve multiple sounds with one single stroke. What's the harm in that, HATERS? Along those lines, Thomas Lang hits his cymbals both on the way UP and the way DOWN. That is ALL the duallist does, allowing for the upstrokes to be heard. There is simply no way conceivable to perceive the duallist as a cheater's way for speed. It is a revolutionary piece of technology that does require adaptation and practice and should merit respect from any musician, drummer or otherwise.

Listen, bottom line is that it allows average drummers to expand their drumming combinations, as well as advanced drummers. You can still use the duiallist and have respect from your fellow drummers, trust me. Granted, if you're a speed death metal drummer looking for a way to play 32nd note double bass drum rolls, and you resort to the duallist as a quick and dirty way, that can be somewhat perceived as a shortcut. But it's not cheating, people. For drummers like me, who play many styles and genres and are looking to expand polyrhythmically, this is PERFECT. It seems that the pedal can also improve your single pedal foot action by forcing you to be aware of your upstrokes, even in single pedal mode. So it can benefit the normal single pedal drummer by forcing him to be aware of his single pedal stroke. It also gives him th option to add flams, triplets, or any other combination with his feet while still maintaining his left foot, which can use the high hat, cowbell, clave, tambourine, etc. It also seems that only VERY VERY ADVANCED DRUMMERS like Lang can pull off playing more than 2 pedals simultaneously, the average joe CANNOT do that. Unless he has the duallist...

Look, this pedal offers drummers a well-contructed, durable single pedal with a painless, relatively manageable method for using double pedal action. If anything it seems like a good investment for a single pedal, let alone for two. And what would happpen should one of the beaters break or malfunction? The show ain't over, cuz you got the second one right there....

I think it's worth the investment, and I just may get it and try it out just to prove to you all that it's something EVERY drummer should experience and THEN decide for themselves.

AND STOP TURNING THIS INTO A VENDETTA OR SPITEFUL COMPETITION! We are all here for the music, the sound, the creativity. Not the hate...appreciate each other's skills and technological advances, and whether you choose to use them or not is up to you, just don't call people cheaters when they're simply being creative or innovative.

PEACE!

[the rich]

IT IS CHEATING!

The pedal is playing extra strokes for you! What you hear -while this pedal is on "double"- is NOT what the drummer is playing. It is HALF of what he/she is playing. Therefore it is cheating.

Drumming in essence is about keeping time by using your hands and feet to keep time. YOU hit the drums. No matter how much the gear advances, YOU play the kit, you play every stroke. You don't have a pedal actually hitting strokes for you. It is absurd to say that this is not cheating, it blatantly is.

I think there are alot of guys on here -and in this thread apparently- who can't get to grips with a real double kick and are looking for an easy way out. You won't get any respect from any good drummer using this kick pedal. It's a joke to think that you are playing double kick with it, because you are not. You are playing single and the pedal is doing everything else for you.

I've spent alot of time working on my double kick -the proper way- and I am pleased to say that I can do all the kick patterns in those demonstration videos somebody linked up previously in the thread (ofcourse you sacrifice hi-hat patterns, but that is the way of it). Working on the complex rhythms over the top takes practice. That is where the satisfaction comes from.

It pisses me off that I've taken so much time workin with a real double kick and somebody is going to come along and let a piece of gear do all the hard work and then have the audacity to claim it is NOT "cheating". It is, get with the program.

Hey, while we are at it, why don't we invent something that plays half of our snare work as well? A drummer must play all his/her own strokes, YOU keep the beat, not the gear.

P.S. Comparing this pedal to somebody playing upstrokes on their cymbals is ridiculous, upstrokes or not, the drummer hits the drum/cymbal/pedal, he/she doesn't have any piece of fancy gear doing it for them!!!

[mediocrefunkybeat]

Calm down guys, it appears that this thread has caused some polarisation. It's just drums, not World War Three.

Right, I will re-itterate what I said earlier. I think that in the case of some situations, the pedal can be useful if used correctly. If you want to play hi-hat patterns and double kick patterns and you have the independence to do so and you haven't neglected your left foot, I think the Duallist is a good thing.

However, as an easy way out to play double bass without developing your left foot, then well I disapprove of such use.

[gr82bagn]

It seems to me this thread has morphed into a cheat or not cheating issue. I have just recently begun using a double pedal and although the dualist is now available I will not use it only because right now I enjoy the work being applied to my double pedal efforts. Since music is a form of artistic self expression if I did choose to use the dualist because I wanted to refocus my efforts on some other aspect of drumming I don’t think I should be condemned for doing so. Now if at the end of a gig I’m sitting down bragging about how fast my feet are (dualist) then I deserves to be punched right in the (dualist). But if I create a drum piece using the dualist and it sounds good for that particular song then more power to me for expressing myself with my instrument. Just my 2 cents.

[Mike Firth]

IT IS CHEATING!

The pedal is playing extra strokes for you! What you hear -while this pedal is on "double"- is NOT what the drummer is playing. It is HALF of what he/she is playing. Therefore it is cheating.

Drumming in essence is about keeping time by using your hands and feet to keep time. YOU hit the drums. No matter how much the gear advances, YOU play the kit, you play every stroke. You don't have a pedal actually hitting strokes for you. It is absurd to say that this is not cheating, it blatantly is.

I think there are alot of guys on here -and in this thread apparently- who can't get to grips with a real double kick and are looking for an easy way out. You won't get any respect from any good drummer using this kick pedal. It's a joke to think that you are playing double kick with it, because you are not. You are playing single and the pedal is doing everything else for you.

I've spent alot of time working on my double kick -the proper way- and I am pleased to say that I can do all the kick patterns in those demonstration videos somebody linked up previously in the thread (ofcourse you sacrifice hi-hat patterns, but that is the way of it). Working on the complex rhythms over the top takes practice. That is where the satisfaction comes from.

It pisses me off that I've taken so much time workin with a real double kick and somebody is going to come along and let a piece of gear do all the hard work and then have the audacity to claim it is NOT "cheating". It is, get with the program.

Hey, while we are at it, why don't we invent something that plays half of our snare work as well? A drummer must play all his/her own strokes, YOU keep the beat, not the gear.

P.S. Comparing this pedal to somebody playing upstrokes on their cymbals is ridiculous, upstrokes or not, the drummer hits the drum/cymbal/pedal, he/she doesn't have any piece of fancy gear doing it for them!!!

It isn't cheating big guy. It is a simpler way to play double bass yet only doing half the work, not being lazy. As long as you don't say "Oh well, i have a faster double bass" when you use a dualist it isn't that big of a thing. People need to stop bickering over if it is or isn't cheating, because it is out there and people can use it, and if they do, what are you going to do about it? You know they are using it and it sounds faster, but you know yourself you can go a bit slower but the genuine way. Its all perfernce in my opinion, since some bands need that kind of speed on the bass.

[NUTHA JASON]

i don't like dualists BUT i must concede this point: That is all the Deallist is exploiting, the fact that one can achieve multiple sounds with one single stroke.
if you think about it a vibraslap is a way of playing a quick succession of sounds from one stroke so why is a bass any different.
now two bass drums with two dualists would be pretty impressive. but i still just don't like the look and feel of the pedal.
however i have changed my mind since trying one out. people who play them, and play them well, have my respect.

j

[Thinshells]

Tired of that double kick sound? Well, VRUK it!

*VRUK isn't cheating either... well, I can't even be sure it's working either...

http://www.moderndrums.dk/upload/hardware/small_47.jpg
"So if you don’t rate, just overcompensate
At least, you’ll know you can always go on ricki lake
The world needs wannabes
So hey hey, do that brand new thing"

[NUTHA JASON]

i got a vruk but playing it properly is so different an approach to my own bass drum technique, and i'm also trying to learn other more important things, that i have decided to sell it on ebay (in a month's time). i know it works and can see how it works but i don't want to waste time on learning how to work it properly.

j

[franklinj]

I know I might sound dumb, but whats a VRUK?

[NUTHA JASON]

that thing in thinshells last post. you clamp the narrow but hafway down you pedal board so the lobe side is resting on the carpet behind the pedal. it effectively makes the board longer by half plus it has a rubber spring under the lobe side which collapses in a brilliant bit of engineering that means basically when you kick down and slightly forward with your heel the pedal board gets pushed down and the beater hits the head and so you can play heel toe method more efficiently.
but my description is loose. best to have a look at this site, particularly the videos
http://www.vrukpedal.com/
j

[finnhiggins]

IT IS CHEATING!

The pedal is playing extra strokes for you! What you hear -while this pedal is on "double"- is NOT what the drummer is playing. It is HALF of what he/she is playing. Therefore it is cheating.

Drumming in essence is about keeping time by using your hands and feet to keep time. YOU hit the drums. No matter how much the gear advances, YOU play the kit, you play every stroke. You don't have a pedal actually hitting strokes for you. It is absurd to say that this is not cheating, it blatantly is.


Ahem. So you're cheating by using a pedal at all, then? After all, the beater is making a horizontal movement while your leg is just making an EASIER, CHEATING vertical one. I suppose with enough practice and some beaters tied to your shoes you could train yourself to do it all without a pedal. We'll just stand back here and laugh, though.

Drumming has, through the history of the instrument, been both an evolution of playing techniques and engineering developments which enable the development of new playing techniques. Without the hi-hat stand we'd have no hi-hats, without the remote hi-hat stand and remote pedal it'd be impossible for Terry Bozzio to play like he does.

This is another development. The thing is, you seem to just see it as an easier way to play things that have already been done - missing the point that, as with any of these developments, with a little time there could well be another amazing drummer who comes along and takes drumming to an entirely new level which would be totally impossible without this piece of gear.


I think there are alot of guys on here -and in this thread apparently- who can't get to grips with a real double kick and are looking for an easy way out. You won't get any respect from any good drummer using this kick pedal.


Not wanting to be a dick, but I'm a reasonably good drummer. People can have my respect for using this pedal, if they're using it well and musically. Similarly, amazing double-kick players can have my respect for their speed but I may not respect what they do with it. You earn respect many ways, how fast your feet move is the least of them.

If your only criteria for evaluating drummers is their foot speed... then yeah, maybe this piece of gear is damaging to your world view. But for the rest of us, whether somebody is using a Duallist or playing the strokes themselves isn't going to make the slightest difference to our perception of whether the parts are good, solid, grooving, appropriate and original.


Hey, while we are at it, why don't we invent something that plays half of our snare work as well? A drummer must play all his/her own strokes, YOU keep the beat, not the gear.


Somebody did invent that. It's called the Freehand Technique, and it's an off-the-rim one-handed roll. My guess is that it will take about as much time to get to grips with as the Dualist.

Is that cheating too?

[NUTHA JASON]

Somebody did invent that. It's called the Freehand Technique, and it's an off-the-rim one-handed

actually someone even invented a device. i saw it in MD a few years ago and laughed. its a drumstick with two tips. one monted with a rubber spring so that it would hit the skin after the primary stick hits it.. ha ha. kind of like a slapstick.

i wonder if guitarists had this kind of argument when the delay pedal first came out.
j

[fourstringdrums]

actually someone even invented a device. i saw it in MD a few years ago and laughed. its a drumstick with two tips. one monted with a rubber spring so that it would hit the skin after the primary stick hits it.. ha ha. kind of like a slapstick.

i wonder if guitarists had this kind of argument when the delay pedal first came out.
j

I remember seeing ads for that. What a joke.

I think the Dualist is cheating, because alot of the things that they show the drummers doing in the video, you can do without this pedal if you learn the right technique and practice it. Some of the things are just unnecessary, for instance the jazz "technique" http://www.theduallist.com/mmedia/video/jazz.wmv The triplet bass drum pattern sounds too busy and out of place in a jazz context IMO.

[finnhiggins]

I remember seeing ads for that. What a joke.

I think the Dualist is cheating, because alot of the things that they show the drummers doing in the video, you can do without this pedal if you learn the right technique and practice it.

That just means the demonstrations are showing people cheating, rather than something inherant in the pedal itself.

The pedal is a tool. If you get good at using it you could play multi-pedal ostinatos with the left foot, fast bass drum patterns with the right and other stuff over the top with the hands.

The best arguments I've heard against the pedal so far are:

* Uneven strokes
* Difficult to control your phrasing because of the whole stroke on down/stroke on up nature of the thing.

But beyond that, if somebody makes a pedal which makes double-kick accessible with one foot then it's in no way cheating anymore than the hi-hat stand is cheating or indeed using a pedal at all is cheating.

It's just a tool.

[the rich]

"But beyond that, if somebody makes a pedal which makes double-kick accessible with one foot then it's in no way cheating anymore than the hi-hat stand is cheating or indeed using a pedal at all is cheating."

What are you talking about? You still play the kick pedal and the hi-hat. You make the strokes, not the pedal. The dualist "fabricates" twice as many beats. It is cheating. It is not helping your technique or giving you a better feel suited to your needs, it is hitting the skin of the drum when your foot is not playing the stroke. I've used one, and it makes life far too easy.

I use my double kick for 16ths, triplets and short, sharp bursts which are impossible to do (atleast consistently) with a single kick. I consider using a dualist cheating, as what I do with a double kick is still difficult to nail in the live setting, even with practice, but that is where the satisfaction comes from. Try it.

[finnhiggins]

What are you talking about? You still play the kick pedal and the hi-hat. You make the strokes, not the pedal. The dualist "fabricates" twice as many beats. It is cheating. It is not helping your technique or giving you a better feel suited to your needs, it is hitting the skin of the drum when your foot is not playing the stroke. I've used one, and it makes life far too easy.

I use my double kick for 16ths, triplets and short, sharp bursts which are impossible to do (atleast consistently) with a single kick. I consider using a dualist cheating, as what I do with a double kick is still difficult to nail in the live setting, even with practice, but that is where the satisfaction comes from. Try it.

I have. Double pedal bored me rigid - too much wasted time for too little musical result in 95% of what I play. Considering most of my work is either covers (very little of which has any double kick), fairly straight-ahead rock music (which doesn't require it), quiet singer-songwriter stuff (where you'd get fired for using it) or jazz (where, again, it's certainly not a requirement) I biffed it out in favour of spending more time studying new styles of music.

You're still missing the point here. Playing your bass drum pedal is easier than kicking the drum, no? Because making a vertical "stomp" is easier for your legs than swinging them at the drum directly and kicking it. But you consider that "Not cheating".

When you play something like a Dualist then you get a note on the downstroke and another on the upstroke. That's basically the equivilent of doing something like what Johnny Rabb does on with his hands with the freehand technique, and just go watch some of the Meinl videos of him to see all the possibilities this opens up for him. Yes, it's cheating - he's not playing very stroke with his hand. He's getting a bonus second stroke when he lifts, by dint of using the rims.

That's a tool. If it can be applied musically then it opens up new possibilities. For example, if you have a double Dualist pedal you could tune your bass drum very open, leave your left foot on it like a hi-hat pedal and use it to play open and closed sounds while still playing constant 16ths with the right foot. You quite simply cannot do that with a double pedal - it's impossible.

Once a piece of gear opens up new possibilities on the instrument it stops being "cheating" - even if it makes some older things easier. It raises the bar, and opens up new musical ideas that would not be possible without that piece of equipment.

If you can't get over the fact that it might give somebody the ability to sound like you with less effort.. well... get over yourself and have some original ideas! Then you won't need to watch your tail all the time for those damn cheaters, will you?

[JT1]

I read through this thread and had to comment.
I can understand why people think that using the
triple kick is cheating but it is correct what Finnhiggins is saying.
You can achieve results with the triple kick that you simply can't
achieve with a double and think of this, you are saying that
it is not practicing double bass the correct way, "what is the
correct way?" the triple kick has a left controled pedal and the
main pedal can be switched to a single so how is that not
practicing double bass the correct way? After all the dualist is a drumming
tool and aren't tools meant to make life easier?

Besides i bet if a drummer that you really admired went out and
got one, all of you would want one!

JT

[dasilvs]

thank you all for making my point for me. all of you who think the duallist is "cheating":

1. probly never tried it
2. are upset and envious that all the time they spent learning with two feet someone else can attempt with one foot
3. are not complying with and embracing progress and evolution of music and technology

without the advances made in the modern drusmet, you wouldn't be able to even play double bass. like someone said in an earlier thread, "So you're cheating by using a pedal at all, then? After all, the beater is making a horizontal movement while your leg is just making an EASIER, CHEATING vertical one. I suppose with enough practice and some beaters tied to your shoes you could train yourself to do it all without a pedal. We'll just stand back here and laugh, though."

so there.

it really isnt an issue of cheating people. its a matter of TASTE and STYLE. obviously there are those out there who are steadfast in the traditional approach, while others are trying to embrace the advances in technology to keep exploring more styles and patterns of music, trying to REINVENT themselves. this pedal opens up the possibilities of a modern drummer's repertoire, allowing them to further create individual limb independence without sacrificing sound. doesn't that sound appealing to any of you haters out there? remember, you can still use the duallist as a normal double pedal anyway, without activating the extra pedals.

look, obviosly the duallist cannot take the place of a double pedal. there are just certain things that only a double pedal technique can produce. but the duallist offers the player the option of playing single or double WITHOUT HAVING TO THINK ABOUT A SEPARATE PEDAL.

PLUS, THIS PEDAL TAKES TIME AND PRACTICE TO LEARN AND DEVELOP, JUST LIKE A DOUBLE PEDAL. i guarantee to all you advanced double pedal big mouths out there that you would NOT be able to sit down and play one of these pedals and recreate the sounds from your two pedals. this is a serious tool to learn and use just like any other part of the drumset. if you cant respect those who play with it, then you don't get it. people are not buying this pedal as a double ledap replacement, just as an alternative.

just my two cents....im gonna try one out myself and maybe show yall how i plan to use it...make up your own mind about the pedal, i think it's a great piece of equipment.

[Leadfoot]

Well, this has been some entertaining reading. To the mods, for what it's worth, I did a search for this topic, although I did it manually and somehow missed this thread, sorry, maybe I should clean the crud off my screen, I'll use the search link from here on.
All this talk of "cheating" is very reminiscent of years past, I've been drumming for 30 years now.
Years ago, I decided to go to 2 bass drums, my peers & instructor all accused me of cheating or taking the lazy road to achieve what some of them could actually do with one foot. Years down the road, the double pedal came into production, I was the first on the proverbial block to get one. My peers accused me of being too lazy to carry & tune an extra drum. I told them "if you want to carry around all that extra lumber, & tune another drum & buy extra heads, then knock yourself out."
Now there is an innovative piece of equipment available to make things yet a little easier, & of coarse, there are people crying foul. I say if some kid can do what I can do, or more, using less gear & less effort, I say more power to him.
There is something to be said about working smarter, not harder, at least in some instances. I doubt that I'll be getting one, but no doubt there are plenty who will, & one of them may take my gig away sometime in the future. If he does, I guess he worked for it, no matter how hard, the end result is the same.

[the rich]

I really, really disagree...

I have used a dualist. I think it is funny that somebody who admits he hasn't used one is judging that I have not. Talk about an assumption. I worked in a music shop for quite some time, in charge of the drum department and a dualist came in for repair (strap had snapped). I had a shot of it and it makes things way too easy that I've been practicing for years on my double kick. That said, you can employ more feel/dynamics with a double kick IMO.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think a drummer should play every stroke and not have a piece of gear playing half of them for him/her. And that is the bottom line for me. Drumming is not supposed to be easy.

[the rich]

I should say that I probably tried a Dualist long before most of you. The company is based in Scotland (where I live), and so the reps were at various Scottish music stores shopping the pedal long before it ever hit the USA or anywhere else.

So I guess, I can appreciate the innovative design of this pedal and the fact that it allows you to play your hi-hat properly, but I really don't like the idea of a pedal playing extra strokes for the drummer.

I apologise if I came across too strongly btw.

[toteman2]

Those of you who regaurd the Dualist as "cheating" should actully find out just what the pedal can do...The demos I've sceen for it are not for adding speed or more notes in general, but it allows you to perform multi pedal ostinatos that would otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE to play with just a single or double bass pedals...Now I have NO desire to ever purchase one, but i think alot of people are just ignorant about the product...Some of the demos I've sceen are mindboggling...

[da cheese walks]

i know im just goin to make the same points as everyone else an get blasted for it but in my opinion,yes,the duallist is an advancement in music technology...but you may aswell get a set of "robot kicks"woooo!

but good lord..what will be next?!self rolling snares??!auto-paradiddle---ers?!

i think yes the duallist is a great engineering achievemnt..but its just cheating..i know ill get blasted but honestly thats like gettin a self playing E string for a guitar?!?!you take out the skill...an i think altho a moderate amount of double bass is good,triple bass?!?!?it sounds terrible!!!

it also degrades drummers who have learned double bass on their own,by makin someone sound beter for half the effort...?

[toteman2]

it also degrades drummers who have learned double bass on their own,by makin someone sound beter for half the effort...?[/


So, does a double pedal degrade drummers who have learned single bass on their own by making someone sound beter for half the effort? Again the dualist allows drummers to do things that would otherwise be impossible...It adds a new angle of creativiity to apply to the instrument...The ostinato demonstration i saw before was CRAZY!

[untilitsleeps]

i dont really like them there cheating i rather stick to my iron cobras

[da cheese walks]

So, does a double pedal degrade drummers who have learned single bass on their own by making someone sound beter for half the effort?

no see the double bass pedal incorporates the actual skill of the drummer,they use both legs for the kicks...whereas the duallist is basically an auto bass kick,which is triggered by your right (or left if ur lefty) foot...its hard to explain my point because generally at this time of night my vocabulary extends very seldom past words like "nice" an "cool"...

[toteman2]

no see the double bass pedal incorporates the actual skill of the drummer,they use both legs for the kicks...whereas the duallist is basically an auto bass kick,which is triggered by your right (or left if ur lefty) foot...its hard to explain my point because generally at this time of night my vocabulary extends very seldom past words like "nice" an "cool

No prob, but when you CAN explain yourself let us know, because I would really like to know what you're trying to say...Trust me it takes skill to use the dualist in a creative way...And 2 legs makes things easier than using one leg...

[toteman2]

To add to what the exactly the dualist can do, here is an example...I would LOVE to see somebody try this with just a double bass pedal...



http://www.edrums.gr/INTERNET%20FILES/ostinato%20HIGH.wmv

[Latin Groover]

i dont understand how that quituplet pedal in Jason's post (post 15) wold work. There is 5 beaters and 2 pedals so is that just 2 beaters to one pedal and 3 to the orther? But that wont beable any faster. That will just give it a more dampened sound rite?

And i went to that dualist website and watched the songo video. Wats goin on ther wen it show the close up of his bass drum there r 2 beaters cause he has a double kick rite, but then wen it zooms out it shows that he isnt even playing that dbl kick for the main bass drum but istead his left foot is playing on somthin far away on his left, so how is 3 beaters moving independetly work, whith only 2 feet?

[Latin Groover]

and where is this picture of the origanal triple bass drum pedal that htis whole thread is about?

[NUTHA JASON]

i don't have a picture of it but i have an idea of what might be in the future: here's the advert:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/joke.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/?)
j

[Slayer_metal_head]

I had a buddy and we used to call his "quad bass" because he used two dualist on two bassdrums but i do think it is cheating but lets say you got one of your legs cut off i think you should be allowed to use the dualist (well i meant without remorse)

[larkin42]

What a great picture Nutha

I love it!!!

[Daddy-o]

I'm not really a "gaget" fan either which is what I would consider the Dualist pedal. However, I can appreciate both points of view here.

Who decides where drummers draw the line where purity and musicianship cross over into trickery? Some purists would think that the double base pedal is crossing the line. The first thing that came to mind when I saw it was...hey, that thing allows your foot to pull off the Moeller Technique. :-)

I think where people get upset is when we think in terms of skills comparsion. So, as long as people are not claiming bass drum BPM superiority using this pedal, then I say, have fun. If the tool serves how you want to play your drums then have at it.

Daddy-o

[Latin Groover]

i dont understand how that quituplet pedal in Jason's post (post 15) wold work. There is 5 beaters and 2 pedals so is that just 2 beaters to one pedal and 3 to the orther? But that wont beable any faster. That will just give it a more dampened sound rite?

And i went to that dualist website and watched the songo video. Wats goin on ther wen it show the close up of his bass drum there r 2 beaters cause he has a double kick rite, but then wen it zooms out it shows that he isnt even playing that dbl kick for the main bass drum but istead his left foot is playing on somthin far away on his left, so how is 3 beaters moving independetly work, whith only 2 feet?

im still very baffeled with this?

[da cheese walks]

i think someone asked for the picture of the actual pedal...

i still cant explain myself mainly cos i honestly dont know the actual way it works...i know the right pedal sets off the extra beater...but still i think we need to know how this badboy actually works...?

i still think the duallist is comparable to a self playing E string on a guitar...

an that video toteman is ridicoulos!!its incredible yeah but holy lord it wud get confusing an honestly whats the point??!

[bodinski]

I cannot understand this debate. It appears that the "up" stroke is not automatic at all, but occurs with the controlled release of the footboard - the opposite (but equal) motion of a traditional stroke. If that is indeed the case, exactly how is it cheating?

[toteman2]

an that video toteman is ridicoulos!!its incredible yeah but holy lord it wud get confusing an honestly whats the point??!

Yeah it's very complex and confusing no doubt, but amazing at the same time...Thats what the dualist brings to the table i guess. I've never sceen anything like that performed before, unless it was programed or done by multiple people at the same time...I see it as an evolution of the instrument when applied in the manner expressed in the video i posted...

[finnhiggins]

an that video toteman is ridicoulos!!its incredible yeah but holy lord it wud get confusing an honestly whats the point??!

That's what I think about double kick most of the time. I don't see how the Dualist is any worse than a double pedal, despite all the whining here. For all your complaining about "self-playing E strings", guitarists have been using tools like delays and phrase samplers for years, and doing things with them that you quite simply cannot do without.

It's a tool. Get over it!

[the rich]

That's what I think about double kick most of the time. I don't see how the Dualist is any worse than a double pedal, despite all the whining here. For all your complaining about "self-playing E strings", guitarists have been using tools like delays and phrase samplers for years, and doing things with them that you quite simply cannot do without.

It's a tool. Get over it!

That's your opinion, and I am willing to respect it. I think that it is at worst cheating and at best an easy way out. And that is my opinion on the matter.

[Blastbeatz]

Most of you guys seem to think its stupid to use this pedal. In my opinion its one of the best
pedals ever made. I own two duallist double pedals which means that I use four beaters.
These pedals allow you to reach bpms you'd never be able to play with pearl or dw single
pedals for example. By the way: How can you say "It's cheating - I hate it", if you never even
took a closer look at it ? It's made of high-quality materials. I' ve wrecked many other pedals in the past years. After torturing mine for more than six months they still look like they' ve never been used. It' s not all about speed, but again: the duallist allows you to play extremely precise, fast and loud - and that's just what I' ve been searchin' for. Even if you' re not into
Death/Black Metal you' ll find 'em very interesting to play. Don' t just look at the pictures -
buy them. Will take ya days to find out how they work, but it is for sure worth the time.

[aahznightsky]

when all i the knowledge i had about this thing was based on thepictures i've seen, i thought it was cheating

but based on reviews i've read, it actually takes some serious shedding to get the timing on that second stroke ... its apparently happens at a very specific time when you lift the pedal

[LumberjackIvan]

I have to say that the dualist is gimmicky. I wouldn't use it. But I guess that when the double bass pedal came out people must've thought it was gimmicky as well. I would rather have such sick bass pedal skills that all I would need is a single pedal. Too much work for me though so I stick to my double bass. But the dualist is getting plain lazy. Why not just make a pedal that plays the entire set for you? I'd prefer never to use it.

[Blastbeatz]

Negative facts about the duallist:
1. It takes hours to find a setup that suits you
2. The official manuals are totally useless
3. The official video is just a waste of time/money
4. Don' t expect to find any help on the net if you' re too stupid to use 'em

Positive facts:
1. Most drummers do not like them - that' s cool - you can piss people off just by using them
2. You' ll find it quite rewarding to play duallists - even though it's hard work in the first days
3. There' s nothing bad about being creative...

[toteman2]

Most of you guys seem to think its stupid to use this pedal. In my opinion its one of the best
pedals ever made. I own two duallist double pedals which means that I use four beaters.
These pedals allow you to reach bpms you'd never be able to play with pearl or dw single
pedals for example. By the way: How can you say "It's cheating - I hate it", if you never even
took a closer look at it ? It's made of high-quality materials. I' ve wrecked many other pedals in the past years. After torturing mine for more than six months they still look like they' ve never been used. It' s not all about speed, but again: the duallist allows you to play extremely precise, fast and loud - and that's just what I' ve been searchin' for. Even if you' re not into
Death/Black Metal you' ll find 'em very interesting to play. Don' t just look at the pictures -
buy them. Will take ya days to find out how they work, but it is for sure worth the time.


I'm a little confused. Do you mean you're using 2 bassdrums, and 2 "single" dualist pedals?

I can somewhat understand people saying using this device would be "cheating" if you're using it to just play fast patterns that don't require a device such as the dualist. I'm more interested in the fact it allows you to play things that would otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE without using a dualist. EX-would be the multi-pedal ostinato video i posted earlier in the thread. If the man was not using a dualist it would be phyisically impossible for him to pull of the ostinato just using double or single pedals. It allows another line of creativity to be expressed wich IMO is groudbreaking.

Just getting the dualist to be able to play as many notes as Tim Waterson does in a minute, or to play doubles like Lang and Virgil defeats the purpose of the dualist.

[hook & lateral]

If you're not getting Bonham-like doubles and triples out of a single 30-year-old rusty Speed King, then in my opinion, you're all cheating!!!













(yes, I'm kidding)

[Pete-Superhands]

OK people just to say I own the pedal in question... and... I like it.
However 90% of the time I use it in single mode, it is a very well build pedal delivering a fantastic punch so no problems there...
I used to own a double pedal as for some songs our band does need that sound I cannot get out of a single... I can therefore play double to a good enough standard.. I think ive paid my dues... the dualist allows me to play EXACTLY the same licks. But as people have already said I can still retain control of the hi-hat, especially as im a fan of the constant open/closed sound.

The dualist "fabricates" twice as many beats. It is cheating. It is not helping your technique or giving you a better feel suited to your needs, it is hitting the skin of the drum when your foot is not playing the stroke. I've used one, and it makes life far too easy.

This is also untrue, it is a matter of leaning a new technique... to fully realise the potential of the pedal you must experiment and learn a completely new technique, for example, this just duplicating beats this is just plain wrong, the second hammer is just as controllable as the main one, just control the foot more and it can be stopped and then used again on the next beat or the main one first again, it can produce some fun licks.

No it is not as good as the "real thing" both in terms of sound (second beater is slower and therefore less powerful) and the options for use are more limited... but also allows more options... I had thought of buying the triple one... not to use all three at the same time, at a guess that would just sound wrong!! But as a "real double pedal" where I don’t need the hi-hat, and in double mode where I do, as people have said it is a tool! I use it because it expands my options and makes my music sound better, that is all... for me its not about going as fast as I can, if you do use the pedal to do this, in my opinion, as a fan of the dualist, is that it is a lazy way out, but used as it should it is an essential part of my kit expanding my musical potential

OK Thats me done!!

[hook & lateral]

That's the question I had regarding the 2nd beater--whether or not it is controllable. It's an important distinction, because the control should be in the drummer's foot--above and beyond merely stomping on a lever to activate the 2nd beater. If you have control of the 2nd beater when it's activated, then it makes a big difference in my opinion, like a drummer having control of the sticks to execute single or double-stroke rolls.

I can't really speak to the third beater option, because that is a modification of a double pedal setup, and I just use a single pedal. I also own a double pedal setup (it's in storage now) but I never really used it for speed. I kept a different beater on the secondary (left) pedal to get a different sound, and sometimes I would press the left beater against the head to get a quick muted effect while using the right pedal. Most of the time though, I just used the right pedal. It seems the three-beater Duallist would serve some purpose as a true double pedal, though, while also providing more creative options or flexibility for the drummer.

[Drumming4anything]

The Duelist Triple, is a joke. The third pedal is only meant for accents which is something with a little practice anyone can do.

The Duelist Double, however, is quite amazing. I also have to add quite useless. The only purpose for it is to allow the left foot to be free to clamp down the hi hat during grooves, but honestly who wants big bursts of double bass during a groove. You would really only want small bursts which with a little practice you can pull off.

I don't have any less respect for people who use a duelist, because to get fast with it you still have to have your right foot resonably fast, and the co-ordination it takes to create complex bass rythems with it just looks confusing to me. As when you press it down, it makes one beat, and when you bring it up it makes another. So in creating some riffs you might be stuck with your foot pressing down on the pedal so as not to add in an extra double.

Overall the duelest is a novelty, nothing more. It is not cheating, rather just another device to use. If I had the money I would probably buy one, just to screw around with. I'm not into death metal and my speed is quite lacking, but for some reason I just feel naked on a drumset without a double kick. I guess that's not a good thing.

[Stu_Strib]

Some of the things are just unnecessary, for instance the jazz "technique" http://www.theduallist.com/mmedia/video/jazz.wmv The triplet bass drum pattern sounds too busy and out of place in a jazz context IMO.

Well kudos to this post for actually getting to the real point at hand. It isn't important if it is cheating or not (seriously, you guys who 'worked hard' have a lame argument). The real issue is this thing is a pile of non-musical crap. It's a good noise maker, sure, but not a tool that a musician would want (or even need!).

I sat through all those videos (painful to say the least). The ONLY use for this thing is the example of 16th notes in place of 8ths. Seriously, all the doubled notes just muck everything up.

When would you want this? Pretty much only in hard music. For the occassional blast of running 16ths, it isn't that hard on normal pedals. It seems like you would waste a lot of time trying to learn the duelist technique to get the strokes even.

Here is my gripe:

How can you trust a company that advertises "triplets" and "flams" then procedes to show a video of an 8th note connected to two 16ths ("triplets") and just a big messy blob of fast beats ("flams")????

This pedal limits your musicianship. You can't switch from running 16ths to running 16th note triplets without totally relearning everything (it it is even possible at all)

Hell, the company doesn't even know what a triplet is, so how can they design a pedal to play one?

Think of the dynamics. YOU control how much down force the first beat generates. Unless this thing has microchips in it and robotics, it can't possibly recreate an equal amount of force for the second stroke. You probably have to train yourself to play one volume so that they are generally even.

It looked promising at first, but their own demonstration is their downfall. I guess they have enough uninformed, NON-MUSICIANS playing drums that wouldn't understand... Even the guy who was playing "840 bpm" was less impressive than about 99% of the metal guys now that use regular old double pedals.

And nobody has even mentioned if the pedal is smooth in single pedal mode (or my guess, not smooth).

Hey, but those kits sounded really good in the production vids!

[Stu_Strib]

The Duelist Triple, is a joke. The third pedal is only meant for accents which is something with a little practice anyone can do.

The Duelist Double, however, is quite amazing.


Well I think you are limited with triplets and 6tuplets on the double, but at least with the triple you could play RRL RRL RRL RRL RRL RRL RRL RRL all day rather easily (Just a R LR LR LR LR shuffle). I'm guessing the introduced the triple to address the fault of the double and it's horrible adaptation to anything not subdivided by 2.

With the duelist double, I guess the only way to do a real triplet (unlike their non-triplet demo) would be DUD UDU DUD UDU, but who thinks in Up and Down when playing a pedal? And god forbid if you end on a down beat, because you are gonna get the upbeat weather you want it or not (as soon as you lift your foot).

This is the main problem with this contraption.

Oh and yeah, before you guys say it, no I haven't used it, but I saw enough on their own promotional videos to smell a skunk.

[bigbang]

i know that there was a thread kicking around about this pedal, but i couldn't locate it. anyway.... i decided to buy a new kick drum pedal and was looking between axis longboards and the duallist. i tend to like quirky (read: gimmicky) things so i figured i'd give the duallist a spin on musiciansfriends dime (45 day satisfaction guarantee woo-hoo). needless to say after 2 days of playing around with this thing it is going back and i'm getting my axis pedals.

talk about useless crap....this pedal has absolutly nothing going for in it. after playing with spring tensions, strap lengths, etc. i got it to a point where it functioned OK as a single pedal (my iron cobra jr's have better response than this $300 behemoth), but then you kick it into double mode.....

in double mode your downstroke produces a note and then your upstroke produces a note. but on the downward strike you're actually fighting both beaters springs. even with the beater springs fairly loose, i found it a chore to hit the head of my kick with enough force to trigger it. then on the upward stroke both springs are pulling with you so that your foot practically flys off the footboard. it's such an unwieldy action that it's actually quite difficult to play 16th notes at all. usually you miss your downstroke unless your really stomping it. theres nothing smooth about it. very jerky. i found that you can use the pedals upward momentum to bounce it back down, kinda like a basketball, but this only seems to work at one particular speed (about 140 bpm). other than that its too slow (no momentum, you struggle to get the pedal back down and then have to control the upstroke speed) or too fast (missed downstrokes). for doing things other than 16th notes its hit or miss. it seems like with a couple weeks of practice i would be able to do consistant triplets, shuffles, maybe even 16ths at different bpm (doubtful) but it just doesnt seem worth the time or the effort when a good double could do it so much better.

last thing, the pedal just feels cheap. its made out of some dupont polymer thats supposed to be stronger than steel, but it's extremly light and just seems to jump from all the torque produced by the springs rebounding at the same time. and the thing is huge. i didnt bother to measure, but it's a bit of a stretch to go between the two switches that change from single to double mode (and the single mode switch you have to stomp the s#!t out of to disengage the second pedal). anyway, just a word of caution to anyone who was wondering about this pedal. it's not as magical as all the demo videos on the website make it out to be. i'd say just stick with a traditional double bass pedal.> quote from another forum....

[brokenhalo]

hey "bigbang", what do yout think you are doing? i posted that on another website and you're stealing my post? at least give credit where credit is due if you are going to post other peoples stuff.

heres my original post http://edrumming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2574

[Stu_Strib]

Ok, that was really weird.

Thanks for posting that Brokenhalo (kinda). That was the kind of response this thread needed 4 pages ago. Someone who knows what they are talking about and explained the shortcomings very well!

Too bad your first post on here was to call out a plagiarist. ;-)

[Leadfoot]

Finally, a post that actually answers the questions I had about the pedal instead of the old "you guys are cheating" harangue. Very much appreciated, thanks.

[bigbang]

it say's on the bottom it's from another forum....I guess you guy's just read what you want

[brokenhalo]

Ok, that was really weird.

Thanks for posting that Brokenhalo (kinda). That was the kind of response this thread needed 4 pages ago. Someone who knows what they are talking about and explained the shortcomings very well!

Too bad your first post on here was to call out a plagiarist. ;-)

a member of this forum just joined our electronic drumming forum and i decided to stop in and see how things were going regarding e's on your site. i used to lurk here until i found edrumming and i've pretty much stayed there ever since. i checked into this thread and was just stunned to see my post up here without any sort of credit. at least bigbang put that he found it somewhere else at the end of his reply. you should of read my original reply (when i thought i was just being ripped off)!

anyway, water under the bridge. i think i might start posting here. it is a nice forum, after all, and you guys could really use some help with your e-knowledge :-).

would the admins have a problem if i put a link to the edrumming site in my signature? i'm not here to steal people away, i just think more people should know that theres a dedicated board full of very knowledgable e-drummers out there.

[bigbang]

a member of this forum just joined our electronic drumming forum and i decided to stop in and see how things were going regarding e's on your site. i used to lurk here until i found edrumming and i've pretty much stayed there ever since. i checked into this thread and was just stunned to see my post up here without any sort of credit. at least bigbang put that he found it somewhere else at the end of his reply. you should of read my original reply (when i thought i was just being ripped off)!

anyway, water under the bridge. i think i might start posting here. it is a nice forum, after all, and you guys could really use some help with your e-knowledge :-).

would the admins have a problem if i put a link to the edrumming site in my signature? i'm not here to steal people away, i just think more people should know that theres a dedicated board full of very knowledgable e-drummers out there.
here's the deal.....I was bouncing around forums in the office of a studio I am at when I noticed the two forums with the same thread going . Your post explained the pedal better where as this thread was just ragging on it.So I just quickly coppied it and put it here with hopes that it would help the guys here. I don't have that much time where I can write a long post or spend all day on a computer like some people. Believe me I would never use or admit to using a duelist..lol.As you can see this forum is full of people who read half of a post and then run their mouths.(stu strib)

[brokenhalo]

its cool bro. no big deal. it would of been better if youd put a link showing where the post came from, but its all been cleared up. honestly, i'm happy that more people will be able to see that review and benefit from it.

[bigbang]

cool dude and welcome aboard

[Stu_Strib]

would the admins have a problem if i put a link to the edrumming site in my signature?

DogBreath does it himself all the time, so no problem I assume.

[skyfish]

That's it, I'm gonna start using an egg beater on the ride cymbal !!!! lol

[DogBreath]

would the admins have a problem if i put a link to the edrumming site in my signature?

DogBreath does it himself all the time, so no problem I assume.
I put links to other drum forums in my signature all the time? That's news to me.

[Stu_Strib]

I put links to other drum forums in my signature all the time? That's news to me.

Not in your signature per se, but in your posts. It is obvious though, that Bernhard doesn't mind external links, because of the spirit of his website is to encourage all things drummings (and it doesn't hurt to buy a dvd from here or pitch in to the pay pal contributions).

[AvengedDrummer]

You know what id do? get a dualist, slap it on a cowbell mount. Just imagine! double cowbell solos!

[Stu_Strib]

You know what id do? get a dualist, slap it on a cowbell mount. Just imagine! double cowbell solos!


That wouldn't be any more annoying than how it is currently employed!

[harryconway]

You know what id do? get a dualist, slap it on a cowbell mount. Just imagine! double cowbell solos!
Exactly....more cowbell. I tried out the Dualist at the NAMM show several years ago and I'm kinda suprised it's still being made. So someone out there, or lot's of someones are buying it.They won't be seeing my wallet, however.

[Tim Waterson]

The duallist reminds me of the Shaver companies .
2 blades now 3 now 4 where will it end......
Oh wait a triple pedal on each side......
More toys
Seriously I have tried the Dualist at NAMM
And it simple to use but....
My problem with it is .... I am NOT really playing the patterns it was producing.
So in my opinion it is an FX pedal like a delay you are not really playing the echo.
Duallist echo pedal LOL
Just my 3 cents I am getting greedy!
Tim

[brokenhalo]

And it simple to use but....
My problem with it is .... I am NOT really playing the patterns it was producing.
So in my opinion it is an FX pedal like a delay you are not really playing the echo.
Duallist echo pedal LOL
Just my 3 cents I am getting greedy!
Tim

just to keep things straight on this pedal, so as not to confuse it even more, you actually WERE playing the patterns that the pedal was producing. your foot goes down, the beater strikes. your foot comes back up, the other beater strikes. the player remains in total control of both beaters. it's not like an echo pedal at all.

[Latin Groover]

id consider it an echo pedal, cause ur not actually playing the 2nd note the pedal is.

[Stu_Strib]

you actually WERE playing the patterns that the pedal was producing. your foot goes down, the beater strikes. your foot comes back up, the other beater strikes. the player remains in total control of both beaters. it's not like an echo pedal at all.

Actually, from what we've read on here, the foot coming up doesn't always trigger the second beater, if you don't do it just right?

Wouldn't that be more like a "tap in" function of a digital delay. I.e., you stomp down to start the timer, then when your foot comes up, it determines the tempo for the one delay note?

In any case, if it produces a sound on the way down then up, the only way to play triplets is to go DOWN UP DOWN, then NEVER let your foot off the pedal again!!!! Or, your next down beat is no an UPSTROKE with the pedal.

Aggghhh, forget that noise!

Good shaver analogy Tim. You know us Americans...bigger is better! (More is better in this case???). Ughh, that's one thing I don't miss about the States for sure.

[brokenhalo]

Actually, from what we've read on here, the foot coming up doesn't always trigger the second beater, if you don't do it just right?

Wouldn't that be more like a "tap in" function of a digital delay. I.e., you stomp down to start the timer, then when your foot comes up, it determines the tempo for the one delay note?

In any case, if it produces a sound on the way down then up, the only way to play triplets is to go DOWN UP DOWN, then NEVER let your foot off the pedal again!!!! Or, your next down beat is no an UPSTROKE with the pedal.

Aggghhh, forget that noise!.

theres no "trick" to getting the second beater to strike. you put your foot down to play one beat, and when your foot comes back up to the starting position, the second beater strikes. theres a strap and a spring that use the momentum of the upstroke to swing the second beater. it basically works like a normal bass pedal stroke, but in reverse which is why the springs are so tight, and why the springs force the footboard back into the up position. if you were to apply some pressure and not let the footboard come all the way back up, the beater wouldnt strike until the footboard came back up.

and to play triplets, your assumptio is correct. down, up, down then up,down,up for the second triplet. its like a strange version of lrl rlr lrl rlr

[Deathmetalconga]

I've wanted a Duallist for years and finally got one last week. I've spent years developing superb single-pedal chops and left-foot hi-hat skills. I've tried double pedals a few times but they are clumsy and disorienting and thought this could help out.

HOW COW! The Duallist has unleashed a dormant skill that was just waiting for the right instrument to bring it out. I'm playing funky triplets, shuffles, you name it - all interlaced with mad hi-hat stops, splashes, shimmers, closed-open grooves, etc. It's just hell of FUN to play.

If the Duallist is cheating, then traditional double pedals are dumb and inefficient. Actually, double pedals are cheating because shouldn't a drummer be able to play everything he needs with one single pedal??

More than any other instrument, drums are marked by invention, experimentation, innovation and trying new ways. If we listened to those who shriek "CHEATER!" we'd still be hitting rawhide drums with mastodon bones (actually, sticks are a simple machine that allow faster action than the hand, so sticks are cheating too).

So, go ahead and invest thousands of hours in getting your left foot to do what your right foot does just fine and neglect your hi-hit skills while you're at it. As for me, I'll let my left foot do what it does best and my right foot do what it does best and I'll smoke any two-footed player with one foot and the Duallist!! HAHA and sorry that your many hours of practice don't mean squat because of your outdated and inefficient double pedals.

While you're at it, I can make you a great deal on some slightly used mastodon bones. They'll compliment your double pedals well.

[bigbang]

Ok, that was really weird.

Thanks for posting that Brokenhalo (kinda). That was the kind of response this thread needed 4 pages ago. Someone who knows what they are talking about and explained the shortcomings very well!

Too bad your first post on here was to call out a plagiarist. ;-)
here's a thought... read the entire post first ...then open your mouth

[Deathmetalconga]

With the duelist double, I guess the only way to do a real triplet (unlike their non-triplet demo) would be DUD UDU DUD UDU, but who thinks in Up and Down when playing a pedal? And god forbid if you end on a down beat, because you are gonna get the upbeat weather you want it or not (as soon as you lift your foot).

This is the main problem with this contraption.

Oh and yeah, before you guys say it, no I haven't used it, but I saw enough on their own promotional videos to smell a skunk.

This is a common mistake for those who are not familiar with The Duallist and its subtleties. Because all they know is the inefficient ham-handedness of traditional double pedals, they assume The Duallist has the same limitations. It doesn't.

At first, I thought you'd only be able to play LRLRLRLR patterns on The Duallist. In fact, you are playing on two planes, separated by a midpoint. At the midpoint, both beaters are even and the same distance from the drum head (around two inches or more, depending on individual settings).

When you press down on the pedal (going south of the midpoint), the primary beater moves to the head and the secondary moves away. You could play south of the midpoint all the time, so the secondary beater would just flop around but never come close enough to contacting the head. Likewise, you could stay north of the midpoint and play with the secondary beater only - the primary beater would flop around, but never contact the head. (In this case, you're training your foot to play a note on the upstroke, which is pretty difficult, but if you have a well-trained right foot, it's not that hard.)

So, you could play paradiddles, double strokes, ratamacues, flams, etc., simply by playing combinations of strokes above and below the midpoint, all with one foot. This takes practice! About the only thing you can't do on The Duallist that you could do on a traditional double pedal is splashes (both beaters hitting at the same time).

As I said, for those who have a well-developed right foot, this will come quickly with practice. But if you've spent years and years building your technique around the wastefulness, inefficiency and clumsiness of traditional double pedals, you're rightly going to feel threatened.

For those with good right foot technique, The Duallist catapults you past the drudgery of re-learning basic patterns on two feet and it immediately gets you into new, exciting and FUN creative territory.

[Chip]

Well, if traditional pedals are "dumb and inefficient", how does one do an accent of the upstroke? Hmmmm?

"actually, sticks are a simple machine that allow faster action than the hand, so sticks are cheating too" - making a comment like that. It's not in the same category as this pedal. you are still doing the work, it is NOT cheating, it is so we can play without hurting ourselves. If it is, throw down your sticks and hit your cymbals with your bare hands. Saying that is the equivalent of saying PEDALS are cheating. double the Duallist.

"So, go ahead and invest thousands of hours in getting your left foot to do what your right foot does just fine and neglect your hi-hit skills while you're at it. As for me, I'll let my left foot do what it does best and my right foot do what it does best and I'll smoke any two-footed player with one foot and the Duallist!! HAHA and sorry that your many hours of practice don't mean squat because of your outdated and inefficient double pedals." - making a stupid comment like that is completely unneccesary. With trad. double pedals, your left foot is independant and still does the work. With the Duallist, it is just a mechanism performing it for you. Double pedals aren't cheating for this reason.

So go on, do double's, paradilles, FLAMS and ratamacues with your "Duallist" as well and efficiantly and cleanly as with a double, oh wait, it's just a stupid gimmick. Because it is stupid. Go play with mastodon bones. I can guarantee that thereare thousand that could "smoke" you and your one foot with ease. Using it is just like using a trigger to double your hit, you're only putting in half the effort, and I bet that it feels like sh*t.

[brokenhalo]

So go on, do double's, paradilles, FLAMS and ratamacues with your "Duallist" as well and efficiantly and cleanly as with a double, oh wait, it's just a stupid gimmick. Because it is stupid. Go play with mastodon bones. I can guarantee that thereare thousand that could "smoke" you and your one foot with ease. Using it is just like using a trigger to double your hit, you're only putting in half the effort, and I bet that it feels like sh*t.

maybe DMC is bragging a bit much about his prowess, but calling this pedal a "gimmick" and likening it to a trigger that doubles your hit (what trigger does that btw? i cant think of any.) is just proving your ignorance and the fact that you havent actually played this pedal or read what people who have played this pedal have written about it. its not cheating and what ive written and what DMC has reiterated prove that fact.

[Stu_Strib]

likening it to a trigger that doubles your hit (what trigger does that btw? i cant think of any.)


You've never heard of digital delay?

[brokenhalo]

You've never heard of digital delay?

sure i have! but thats not what a trigger does. thats an outboard effect. just semantics, but i'll flesh it out a little bit.. even if you were to use a digital delay with a triggered drum, it wouldn't sound right anyway. i've played extensively with the onboard d.d. on my td-20 and with running a line out into a boss dd-6 guitar pedal. nothing really sounds "proper" coming out of either box. although using a dd-6 to loop short drum phrases and playing over them is quite fun, there's really no way to make a trigger/d.d. cheat in the way that chip implied.

[brokenhalo]

DMC

really glad you're making out allright with that pedal. i didn't want to invest the time in learning how to tame that beast, but i could definitly see the possibilities that it held. good luck to you .

[Deathmetalconga]

Thanks for the good wishes, brokenhalo, and I'll post updated on my experiences with the pedal. It seems there is an overabundance of opinion here on The Duallist, but a lack of input here from people who actually use the thing.

Another reason why I can't play a double pedal is that I already have a pedal for a percussion item, a hi-hat and a variable pitch drum (see www.b-radpercussion.com) as well as the bass drum. I simply can't FIT a fifth pedal into my setup. The Duallist uses space very efficiently.

[Chip]

Yeah, my comments were a bit harsh....

I personally wouldn't get one, as I've just finally grasped heel toe(speaking of which, you should attempt heel toe with this pedal, THAT would be crazy), thus disbanding my interest in this product. I just feel that if you're not doing the action, it's just not cricket. It would be like having sticks that bounce twice without your guidance. I'm not jumping on the "it's cheating" bandwagon, it just feels like it has a different, mechanical feel. Like the accents would never be as loud as the downstroke.

In retrospect, if you find it better and easier, why bother with what anybody else says? You're happy with it, and can use it well, and that's all that matters.

[Stu_Strib]

sure i have! but thats not what a trigger does. thats an outboard effect. just semantics,


My only three experiences in three years of drum teching with drummers using triggers, all three of them had some sort of ability to "tap in" the digital delay rate with their triggers. I thought it was cheezy (and still do). To me it was like playing keyboards with your feet.

Just my experience; maybe more guys use them in more of a legit way, and less of an electronic gimmick.

[Chip]

To me it was like playing keyboards with your feet

That's exactly how I feel about it. It's just not right.

[Deathmetalconga]

Yeah, my comments were a bit harsh....

I personally wouldn't get one, as I've just finally grasped heel toe(speaking of which, you should attempt heel toe with this pedal, THAT would be crazy), thus disbanding my interest in this product. I just feel that if you're not doing the action, it's just not cricket. It would be like having sticks that bounce twice without your guidance. I'm not jumping on the "it's cheating" bandwagon, it just feels like it has a different, mechanical feel. Like the accents would never be as loud as the downstroke.

In retrospect, if you find it better and easier, why bother with what anybody else says? You're happy with it, and can use it well, and that's all that matters.


Chip, what is the "heel toe" technique of which you speak? Do you mean a Vruk attachment? It would indeed be crazy to mate a Duallist with a Vruk - The Vrukist. (I would laugh my head off if any Duallist purists cried, "THAT'S CHEATING!")

Also, as I play more with The Duallist, I am becoming aware of some of its limitations. I am finding that you cannot make the secondary beater ever hit as hard as the first (as your intuition told you), although you can make it sound pretty good anyway by adjusting tension, stroke length, etc.

The Duallist makes some things easier, such as shuffles and simple sixteenths (and that covers a lot of musical territory right there). But other things are harder than a double pedal, such as double-stroke rolls, paradiddles and anything not in the LRLRLRLR mode. Some things are impossible, such as splashes. But The Duallist allows some things that are impossible on a double pedal, such as keeping the left foot on the hi-hat or percussion item.

On the other hand, the fact that you're using your well-trained right foot helps somewhat. I'm finding my right foot is waiting and eager to do the subtle movements The Duallist requires and it is coming along with practice.

[Chip]

Heel-toe is difficult to explain...... I've known about it for a few months and I'm only just starting to beable to do it cleanly and faster than heel up.
You don't need the Vruk to do it, essentially you stomp the pedal (don't break it haha) and as you do, with your foot on the heel plate, roll your foot up, using the heel as fulcrum, and play a normal heel down stroke. Derrick Pope said his heel toe video is due thurs-fri, so get it.

I feel that one will never be able to put they're soul into it (second stroke) with the duallist. Great invention though. Sounds corny, but..........

[osamasgoat5467]

It looks so cheaply made. Is that pink and black plastic??

[Deathmetalconga]

It looks so cheaply made. Is that pink and black plastic??

Indeed it is made of plastic, but it's incredibly strong. It's made of Zytel, the same stuff they use for car engine parts. This is the early 21st century so don't be too surprised there's a plastic that has the strength of steel at a fraction of the weight.

And yes, that is an unabashedly hot pink logo sticker on the footboard. This is a drum pedal, not a cello, so a little flamboyance is understandable.

[brokenhalo]

the zytel was an interesting way to go, but i found that it made the pedal feel kinda jumpy. with all the tension that those two springs create, it felt almost like the pedal was going to jump up in the air on the upstroke.a heavier mount might have made it feel a little nicer, and i have to agree that the hot pink lettering was a little offsetting....(insert lighthearted "finally, a drum pedal made for girls" joke here).

[Chip]

Strangely enough, I was messing around with my pedal, and the thing is that heavy, that when it's not clamped onto the bass drum, it actually builds up enough momentum, and starts swinging both beaters! It loooked like a bloody Duallist when I was doing it...

[dasilvs]

guess what, people? I ordered my Duallist double pedal about 3 months ago and have been tinkering with its setup and feel, which i find to be the ONLY thing wrong with the duallist (it takes lots of patience and trial and error to get the pedal in proper place to your liking). and now that derrick has put out his videos on these awesome techniques, not only will i be able to master moeller and heel/toe technique, but since i have a duallist i can take it one step further and see how the heel/toe can affect double beaters on one pedal...can you imagine what can come of this?

oh the possibilities...for those skeptical about the duallist just know that if you are willing to put in the necessary time to set it up and get the maximum feel you want, you can achieve everything double pedal players can do, and more. you can accent your rolls without having to consciously think about making more than one stroke or move. and what about THREE beaters on TWO pedals? for those who are all about the traditional double pedal, duallist offers double pedal experts the chance to play three beaters at once! crazy man...but for now im sticking with the double duallist and see what kinds of rhythms i can create.

i don't know why there is so much hate surrounding the duallist. like someone posted earlier, if we listened to those crying "CHEATER" we would still be beating on animal skin drums with big mallets...

[Deathmetalconga]

Damn straight!
---------------------

[CodeGuy]

Wow. I am really flabberghasted by this whole thread. And to think I sat around wondering why in the hell we don't have a workable 1 lug tuning system for drums (Arbiter), so I can tune my drums ON the stand. Things move on guys. What used to take hundreds of men with shovels, now takes one bulldozer. Double pedal was widely regarded as "cheating" when it first came out, now it is common. And so it goes. Let me just toss one thing back, that I have heard over and over again


A GOOD drummer serves the music, not his ego.

That is directly from many, many drummers in this group. If you can find a way to make the dualist serve the music, use it, and laugh all the way to the bank. Nuff said, and I'm done.

[brokenhalo]

And to think I sat around wondering why in the hell we don't have a workable 1 lug tuning system for drums (Arbiter)


isnt that system brilliant? whoever invented that needs better marketing people. drummers should be marching in the streets to get that universalized. but i bet only a handful of people even on this forum know what were talking about. also, always wanted to try out a flats kit. they just look so cool!

[CodeGuy]

It is brilliant. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why it has never become popular. Well, after reading this thread I can sort of see why, not understand, but see why. I actually thought about writing Arbiter and going into drum building just to try and do my bit to popularize that tuning system.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

They are popular, amongst orchestral percussionists. It is to my understanding that modern tunable Tympani use a one-lug system so that you can change the note instantaneously with a pedal.

[syaoran05]

the duallist isnt exactly good, but it isnt exactly bad either. if you could set it up so that it sounds flawless hey congratulations. then again i dont think it'll sound good if say, you tried to do moeller or heel toe on the pedal that has the two beaters. i think the duallist is just a high speed triplet pedal mechanism. kinda like overspeeding gadd's ramaques on the kick.

innovations are really helpful yeah, but some just are annoying in a way that we rely on the machines more than we rely on ourselves. if this continues, i predict a duallist with two beaters connected to a pedal totalling four pedals [which btw, imo, i think is more acceptable than the current three beater duallist] and sticks with bending shoulders just like the bending necks some badminton racquets have now.

[Deathmetalconga]

the duallist isnt exactly good, but it isnt exactly bad either. if you could set it up so that it sounds flawless hey congratulations. then again i dont think it'll sound good if say, you tried to do moeller or heel toe on the pedal that has the two beaters. i think the duallist is just a high speed triplet pedal mechanism. kinda like overspeeding gadd's ramaques on the kick.

innovations are really helpful yeah, but some just are annoying in a way that we rely on the machines more than we rely on ourselves. if this continues, i predict a duallist with two beaters connected to a pedal totalling four pedals [which btw, imo, i think is more acceptable than the current three beater duallist] and sticks with bending shoulders just like the bending necks some badminton racquets have now.


Great ideas! You should work in product development for a drum company.

[Deathmetalconga]

They are popular, amongst orchestral percussionists. It is to my understanding that modern tunable Tympani use a one-lug system so that you can change the note instantaneously with a pedal.

I got me one of these in March - freakin' awesome!

A foot operated variable pitch drum for the drumset:

www.b-radpercussion.com

[syaoran05]

Great ideas! You should work in product development for a drum company.

lol. frankly, about the four-beater duallist yeah i think it might be better than the 3 beater duallist that's currently on.. i think at least with the four-beater you might still be able to apply the techniques you use on an ordinary double pedal. hehehe.

i dont want to work in a drum development company that produces weird stuff that takes the importance of technique away.. like i dunno, a double headed y shaped stick?

my final point is, i dont think people should rely on products like duallist to improve their sound [note: sound, not playing]... if you saw me im a real bad drummer... i do the right basic stuff, like gripping the stick and not pulling up and upstrokes and letting the stick bounce [im working on the moeller].... but you wont see me play rudiments or double bass or just a plain roll. my left side of the body is that weak. but i work around my own problems and at the end of the day i still sound good, at least in my opinion, even if i dont do the stuff regular drummers can do. you wont see me use a duallist or that fictitious bendable shoulder stick i was talking about on my last post :P

[dasilvs]

well, at least it's now being viewed as a matter of taste and not a matter of cutting corners...

[Deathmetalconga]

you wont see me use a duallist or that fictitious bendable shoulder stick i was talking about on my last post :P

Actually, you likely already use a bendable shoulder stick. People have been using them for decades.

Ever wonder why drumsticks have a taper (besides making them look cool)? On imapact, the tapered part bends upward, storing energy and imparting it downward. This is known as "bounce." Try playing timbale sticks (which have no taper) and you'll see the bounce is greatly reduced. To play timbale sticks with as much fluidity and speed as tapered sticks takes a great deal of technique, because you don't have the taper of the stick doing the work for you. You do have to control the bounce in a tapered stick, however, which takes a whole new set of skills.

The only difference between a "cheat" and the "industry standard" is the number of people who use something and the length of time they have been using it.

[osamasgoat5467]

personally i hate the dualist, i dont care if you use one, but if your going to use one, dont expect to get as much credit as guys who use regular double pedals hence single pedals, and dont get cocky about how fast u can get with a dualist (lars ulrich), cuz its easy as hell to get speed with dualists. we dont care if u can play just as fast as we can with a dualist, because your not, ur feet arent moving as fast as are feet, ure just getting a faster sound and being lazy at the same time.isnt technology great?! haha jk, next thing you know, there gonna be making sticks that branch off into 2 ends so u can can play faster, lmao... if u wanna get fast, take the time and practice to get fast. dont get a dualist and cheat at it.

There are times when it would be useful. You can do a roll with your dualist while opening and closing your hi hats. Thats it! a dualist hi hat stand! Lol that would be so cool You get a dualist hi hat stand on your left and a dualist remote hi hat to your right. That would sound so cool.

[syaoran05]

Actually, you likely already use a bendable shoulder stick. People have been using them for decades.

Ever wonder why drumsticks have a taper (besides making them look cool)? On imapact, the tapered part bends upward, storing energy and imparting it downward. This is known as "bounce." Try playing timbale sticks (which have no taper) and you'll see the bounce is greatly reduced. To play timbale sticks with as much fluidity and speed as tapered sticks takes a great deal of technique, because you don't have the taper of the stick doing the work for you. You do have to control the bounce in a tapered stick, however, which takes a whole new set of skills.

The only difference between a "cheat" and the "industry standard" is the number of people who use something and the length of time they have been using it.

thanks for the physics facts dude. learned a lot in there. although i was talking about something more bendy, perhaps a spring core oak stick with the shoulder instead of wood is made of mylar or something, just so the stick would felx more..

but really i like the facts... :P im a physics freak lol

[syaoran05]

There are times when it would be useful. You can do a roll with your dualist while opening and closing your hi hats. Thats it! a dualist hi hat stand! Lol that would be so cool You get a dualist hi hat stand on your left and a dualist remote hi hat to your right. That would sound so cool.

for that thing i think the sonor pedal [i forgot what it's called] that's a single pedal with 2 beaters [and i think the 2nd beater is controlled on the back part of the pedal using your heel, at least by looking at the pic] would be better that a duallist. i think that sonor pedal is way better than the duallist in any way.

[Deathmetalconga]

for that thing i think the sonor pedal [i forgot what it's called] that's a single pedal with 2 beaters [and i think the 2nd beater is controlled on the back part of the pedal using your heel, at least by looking at the pic] would be better that a duallist. i think that sonor pedal is way better than the duallist in any way.


Well, I'm not able to say myself, since I've never played a Sonor pedal of any kind before.

But I can tell you after a month of playing the Duallist it has unleashed a dormant skill in my right foot and I am playing mad patterns, much to the delight of myself, my band mates and the audience. The Duallist cuts throught the inefficiency, wastefulness and tedium of the double pedal and allows those with good right foot chops to immediately plunge into fun of double-beater possibilities. And I get to lace the bass drum rhythms with full hi-hat action, something impossible with double pedals.

As for the Duallist "doing the work for you," I have used the pedal for many hours now and it only puts out what you put into it. I even sat looking at it once to see if it would start playing on its own. No dice.

[Fat Elvis]

You do have to wonder if this pedal design was made by DW (9000 series) or Axis, would it be hailed as ingenious? Somehow i bet it would be more "accepted". Dollars to donuts some of the hatred is directed at a "no name" company, with a plastic product with a bright pink logo.

[Deathmetalconga]

You do have to wonder if this pedal design was made by DW (9000 series) or Axis, would it be hailed as ingenious? Somehow i bet it would be more "accepted". Dollars to donuts some of the hatred is directed at a "no name" company, with a plastic product with a bright pink logo.

Man, that's an excellent observation. I think there's some amount of bias in favor of the big manufacturers.

The story of The Duallist is pretting interesting. The maker, Kevin Mackie, started this as a high school shop project 20 years ago and it's a passion he's followed his whole life. This didn't spring from a focus group, marketing survey or other corporate initative. This guy just had a vision for a better pedal and followed his heart.

The only reason the big name manufacturers don't have their own version of the Duallist is because Mackie has patented everything, so they can't rip him off. Sonor has its own version, but it's more like a Vruk. While Mackie has the exclusivity, he lacks the big-name recognition and it's unfortunate people hold that against him. The pedal is really revolutionary and will change your entire approach to playing.

[beatsMcGee]

the dualist is really a matter of principle to me.. while everyone has posted great points and counter points it just comes to principle. to me it seems like an easy way out, i prefer the self acomplishment that is acheived when you can play clean doubles with the traditional pedal using one foot. not that i am against improvment and the bettering of drumming products it come to some things seem to be more a backdoor to a problem.

[brokenhalo]

for that thing i think the sonor pedal [i forgot what it's called] that's a single pedal with 2 beaters [and i think the 2nd beater is controlled on the back part of the pedal using your heel, at least by looking at the pic] would be better that a duallist. i think that sonor pedal is way better than the duallist in any way.


just out of curiousity, why would you say that the sonor pedal is "way better than the duallist in any way" when you havent ever played either pedal and admit that you dont fully understand how the sonar works? you've come to that conclusion by looking at pictures?

i dont want to seem hostile, but thats the kind of post we dont need. at least have some knowledge of the topic before you post.

but then again if that logic was followed this thread would only have about 30 posts in it.....

[Garvin]

isnt that system brilliant? whoever invented that needs better marketing people. drummers should be marching in the streets to get that universalized. but i bet only a handful of people even on this forum know what were talking about. also, always wanted to try out a flats kit. they just look so cool!

I had to play one of those for 3 straight months. I got realllly sick of it after a while. The only great thing was I could take it on a bus through Central America without having to have a road crew. The sound of the bass drum is okay at first, but after a while you really miss the fullness of a real bass. Also the snares suck and there is really only one good spot to tune the drums (pitch wise) Sorry.

Oh.... I don't have nor will I ever have a dualist (Just to keep on topic)

[finnhiggins]

for that thing i think the sonor pedal [i forgot what it's called] that's a single pedal with 2 beaters [and i think the 2nd beater is controlled on the back part of the pedal using your heel, at least by looking at the pic] would be better that a duallist. i think that sonor pedal is way better than the duallist in any way.

Having played one of the Sonor pedals I'd say that I'd never buy one. It has no rest position that I could find without stomping one of the beaters into the head, which I avoid unless I'm specifically doing it for a sound. The only way to rest your foot (and therefore remove tension from your leg) was to take it off the pedal entirely and put it on the floor - or at least your heel, anyway. Not very efficient in terms of use of muscles.

[Deathmetalconga]

You mean the dual beater option can't be switched off??? That's amazingly stupid, especially for such a fantastically expensive pedal. Even with The Duallist, I only play both beaters about 10 percent of the time when performing (more when practicing because it's so gosh darn FUN to belt out those 16th shuffles with one foot). The secondary beater on the Duallist can be switched on and off immediately.

Dual beater/single foot pedal designs have been around since the 1930s but they never caught on because they couldn't be transformed into a single pedal when needed. The Duallist is the first such pedal that can be instantly and conveniently converted to traditional single pedal when needed.

[brokenhalo]

DMC, when i was playing with the duallist i never bothered to turn the double mode off. you can play single strokes in double mode by not letting the pedal board come all the way up. i'm sure that you've noticed that already. i just thought it was easier to control the upstroke than to worry about stomping on the levers while playing.

[Deathmetalconga]

DMC, when i was playing with the duallist i never bothered to turn the double mode off. you can play single strokes in double mode by not letting the pedal board come all the way up. i'm sure that you've noticed that already. i just thought it was easier to control the upstroke than to worry about stomping on the levers while playing.

Yes, Halo, that's true. You could also use the secondary beater as your primary beater if you played only north of the neutral midpoint (lifting your foot UP to make the beater contact - trippy). Maybe not too practical, but it would be a tremendous control exercise and far more advanced than anything on a traditional double pedal.

I've been practicing paradiddles and double strokes with my Duallist. It's extremely difficult, much more challenging that doing it with a double pedal. It really forces you to reassess your entire approach to the foot pedal.

If you were using the Duallist only in double mode, that's very difficult and you must have developed some chops to do it. So how come you don't play a Duallist anymore?

[brokenhalo]

i basically demoed the duallist for a few days on musiciansfriends dime. i was looking for a new double and figured i'd give the duallist a shot cause it looked interesting. i couldnt really get into it and figured id be better off getting a traditional double pedal and learning that. so i returned the duallist and now im playing yamaha direct drives and i couldnt be happier, but i'm always on the lookout for something different.

and my chops really arent that killer. i hated the force necessary to play in double mode, but the pedal felt too slow and light in single mode. i guess it was attributable to the strap drive (thats the only one ive ever played) and the fact that i only spent a few hours tweaking it. from what i've gathered, tweaking is the key to that beast.

[Deathmetalconga]

Well, Halo, I do respect your opinion. You might not be too fond of The Duallist for yourself, but you have actually tried it and you appreciate its advantages and disadvantages, so you have a basis for your opinions.

Before anyone forms a strong opinion about The Duallist one way or the other, they should try one. It is not easier than you think and it's not harder than you think. It's just totally unlike what you think and you have to play one to understand.

[Chip]

DMC, have you tried putting some velcro on the footplate/ your shoe, or taping, strapping (belt maybe?), somehow attaching your foot for a more controlled upstroke?
I was ust thinking about it, so I decided I may as well try and suggest it or help someone as I don't have one.

[jarrod]

i think it makes u look worse, for exampel some uses the dualist and goes look how fasti can play and then u get some one that can play faster with just a normal double pedal

But i would never have one because i dont like the diea of having more beaters than feet

[Deathmetalconga]

DMC, have you tried putting some velcro on the footplate/ your shoe, or taping, strapping (belt maybe?), somehow attaching your foot for a more controlled upstroke?
I was ust thinking about it, so I decided I may as well try and suggest it or help someone as I don't have one.

That's a good idea. There is that adhesive-backed sandpaper (used for stair treads) that I have stuck on my hi-hat, foot percussion and variable pitch drum pedals. I should put that or some Velcro on the Duallist pedal, because it is a little slick.

[brokenhalo]

i think it makes u look worse, for exampel some uses the dualist and goes look how fasti can play and then u get some one that can play faster with just a normal double pedal

But i would never have one because i dont like the diea of having more beaters than feet

wlele i thinkkknek that havnig too dumrstiks is stupit cuz havaving mor drumticsk thn hands is stupit. aslo sum drumer can play fster than an other drumer taht is my opinon.

seriously.... what?????

[glynes]

Being in the market for my first double bass pedal, I've read this topic with great interest. I may have to give this thing a look/listen. Cheating? Maybe. But face it, I'm not 13 and I don't move so fast. That's pretty much the reason for the double pedal in the first place. If there's something that can give me the sound I want and allow me to conserve a little energy, I'd sure consider it. I'm sorry if that means you won't respect me in the morning ... but unless you're hiring me for a band, or booking me into a gig, I'm afraid that's not my #1 priority,
8-)
Of course, what it'll come down to is what Donn Bennett has at his big sale in 2 weeks.

[Deathmetalconga]

It's good you keep an open mind, Glynes. You should give it a try and you can always send it back if you don't like it. I'd advise you to develop some skill on single-pedal to get the most out of the Duallist.

The first foot pedals came out more than 100 years ago and were made out of wood, slow, cumbersome and hard to play. Ludwig improved on that with a compact spring design. No doubt people playing the inefficient pedals back then cried cheating.

The first single-pedal dual-beaters date from the 1920s and the first double pedals date from 1983 (the DW 5002). So, which came first and who is copying who?

Double pedals are big, clumsy, hard to play, waste space and prevent full use of the hi-hat. The Duallist makes all double pedals obsolete.

[Fat Elvis]

wish they were cheaper. :) i am somewhat intrigued as well. I have a DW 5002 right now, but i play double so rarely that my skills pretty much suck. It would be nice to be able to concentrate on single footwork (which i do) and be able to use the double effortlessly on the rare occasion that i would need it.

is your only option to buy direct from dualist?

[brokenhalo]

you can find the dualist pedals on musiciansfriend. thats where i got mine. and if you dont like it you can just return it for about $9. think of it as a rental.

[Deathmetalconga]

wish they were cheaper. :) i am somewhat intrigued as well. I have a DW 5002 right now, but i play double so rarely that my skills pretty much suck. It would be nice to be able to concentrate on single footwork (which i do) and be able to use the double effortlessly on the rare occasion that i would need it.

is your only option to buy direct from dualist?

I bought from the manufacturer because I like the company and its story and I wanted to support them directly, but I'd say get one any way you can.

A Duallist will immediately take advantage of your hard-earned right-foot skills and open up a new dimension in playing. You will be amazed to hear what funky closed-open hi-hat patterns sound like when superimposed on two-beater patterns. That's just impossible with standard double beaters. Because The Duallist puts your right-foot skills to work, you won't have to spend hundreds of hours training you left foot to play patterns you will be lucky to use once every 10 songs. That will free your time up for developing other skills.

The Duallist works very well as a high-quality single pedal also. You will need to practice at getting used to the difference in tension, however. In dual-beater mode, you are pulling on the springs for both beaters, which takes double the effort (contrary to popular belief, The Duallist doesn't "do the work for you"). When you drop back into single-beater mode, the tension drops to half. That takes some getting used to - one of the many subtle skills you will develop on The Duallist.

[DdubBdrum]

My logic against buying one and using it exclusively would be that if you ever played on another kit, or took lessons on a different kit, you'd either have to bring your dualist or sound like crap. So if you played anywhere but practice with a dualist and someone later told you "WOW MAN! You have crazy chops on those bass drum doubles!" and ask you to play, well, unless you carry your pedal in a backpack with you everywhere you go, you'd have to embarassedly say, "Oh, well I can't do it without my special pedal." Where as, if you just develop your true blue right foot chops, you'd have no problem on any kit, any place, anytime. just my logic and opinion.

-D

[brokenhalo]

My logic against buying one and using it exclusively would be that if you ever played on another kit, or took lessons on a different kit, you'd either have to bring your dualist or sound like crap. So if you played anywhere but practice with a dualist and someone later told you "WOW MAN! You have crazy chops on those bass drum doubles!" and ask you to play, well, unless you carry your pedal in a backpack with you everywhere you go, you'd have to embarassedly say, "Oh, well I can't do it without my special pedal." Where as, if you just develop your true blue right foot chops, you'd have no problem on any kit, any place, anytime. just my logic and opinion.

-D

agreed. that definitly played into my decision to go with a regular double pedal.

[Deathmetalconga]

My logic against buying one and using it exclusively would be that if you ever played on another kit, or took lessons on a different kit, you'd either have to bring your dualist or sound like crap. So if you played anywhere but practice with a dualist and someone later told you "WOW MAN! You have crazy chops on those bass drum doubles!" and ask you to play, well, unless you carry your pedal in a backpack with you everywhere you go, you'd have to embarassedly say, "Oh, well I can't do it without my special pedal." Where as, if you just develop your true blue right foot chops, you'd have no problem on any kit, any place, anytime. just my logic and opinion.

-D

Good points. But one could apply the same arguments to double pedals, which have only been out since 1983. As soon as they hit the scene, drummers started using them as a shortcut to do things that would take too much effort to render on a single pedal.

To someone who has devoted the time and effort to develop good double-pedal technique, The Duallist will seem like cheating. But to someone who has devoted the time and effort to develop good single-pedal teachnique, double pedals will seem like cheating. To someone who has devoted the time and effort to develop good Duallist technique, double pedals and single pedals will seem like inefficient curiosities, kind of like how people now view genuine calfhide drum heads.

Until you have tried a Duallist, you should not assume it's easier. It's not easier, but it's not harder. It's just a radically different (and more efficient) way to use your right foot. Checking out opinions on a discussion board is a good way to learn about it, but the only way to truly understand it is to clamp one to your bass drum and put it through the paces. It will turn your view of the bass drum upside down.

[SilverPearl]

Yeah it would make rolls easier, but it's not very practical, and way too expensive, the double is better and more renown anyways.

[dasilvs]

My logic against buying one and using it exclusively would be that if you ever played on another kit, or took lessons on a different kit, you'd either have to bring your dualist or sound like crap. So if you played anywhere but practice with a dualist and someone later told you "WOW MAN! You have crazy chops on those bass drum doubles!" and ask you to play, well, unless you carry your pedal in a backpack with you everywhere you go, you'd have to embarassedly say, "Oh, well I can't do it without my special pedal." Where as, if you just develop your true blue right foot chops, you'd have no problem on any kit, any place, anytime. just my logic and opinion.

-D

Whoa, wait a second. Aren't double bass pedals considered "special pedals" as well? The way I see it, the Duallist offers the OPTION to use double bass with ONE PEDAL. That's it. I don't understand what people have been saying about it. I bought one not too long ago and after a bit of tinkering I got it to feel EXACTLY like my SINGLE PEDAL. Therefore, my transition was not painful and frustrating like some people seem to think. What it comes down to is TASTE, STYLE and PREFERENCE.

Like Dom Famularo would say, it's just another TOOL for drummers to use to EXPRESS THEMSELVES...

I also forgot to mention that you can buy the double pedal option so that you can get ONE, TWO, or even THREE different beaters going. You can have a single pedal going, add a double with the second pedal, then if you choose to, throw the switch on the first pedal to activate its second pedal for a total of THREE AT A TIME. How can this not EXCITE drummers to explore new things about drumming? Why are so many people so NEGATIVE and CRITICAL?

[Deathmetalconga]

dasilvs, I'd like to pick your brain about your settings. I'm having trouble with the secondary beater bouncing too much. Should I reduce the spring tension on it? Increase it? Reduce or increase the throw? Strap length? The pedal is so adjustable I get lost in the settings. FYI, I have very short pedal shafts - I had to cut them with a hacksaw to get them short enough and there is less than three inches of shaft length. I like the settings for the primary beater. I played with a DW 5000 chain drive for more than 10 years and the Duallist feels even more smooth and responsive in single mode. It's the secondary beater that seems to need the most tweaking.

What styles do you play and what preferences do you have and what kinds of settings? That would help me experiment to find the best settings for me. I play world beat/ethnic fusion type stuff.

[d.c.drummer]

This isn't a sport. This is music. Is it "cheating" to use electronics and a sampler so I can play chinese festival drums on my kit when I want to? I mean, I could just buy one (for about the price of a new snare drum) and put it out next to my floor tom, then leap up and play it before sitting down again?

Is it cheating to use hot-rods to play quietly rather than spending years learning how to pull off a mean groove at pp dynamic using sticks? It can be done, after all.

Possibly in both cases, if you want to turn drumming into some kind of contest. But there's a limit to how much time any given musician has to practice, and if you're the kind of person for whom double kick is not a major priority *but* you do have some occasional use for one if somebody asks for a burst of kick drum and cymbals somewhere... Maybe this would do the job, no? Should this person learn to play double kick? My answer would be probably not, unless they've got time to spare.

I mean, how many of you people drive manual cars? Or stick-shift, as it seems to get called in the US.. I do, and I like it a lot. But on the other hand, is it "cheating" to drive to work in an automatic? Not really. It gets the job done.

The difference between a good drummer and a bad drummer is not how they manage to hit things with their feet, it's what the music they play sounds like. "Cheating" in my eyes would be doing something like miming to a tape or using ProTools to correct your dodgy snare drum backbeat timing. You shouldn't have to do either of those if you aspire to be a great musician, but I don't see why using a pedal like this would be any kind of obstacle unless there's no way to prevent it constantly firing off double or triple strokes. That would certainly be a good reason to avoid the pedal, but not because it's easier than spending years training your feet for crying out loud...



I completly agree. BUT, the dualist pedal is for drummers like Terry Bozio and stuff. Unless a drummmer is at a high level, they should stick to single and maybe double until they are good at it. Dont sacrifice skill to "cheat" for 200 bucks more. Plus most people would be screwing themselves by trying to use this pedal.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

The point is DC, is that this pedal is not 'cheating' it is actually difficult to use and requires its own, very specific and specialised technique.

[Chip]

I think if the pedal had direct linkages, with the left's linkage being on the other side of the cam, if anybody gets what I mean, I am pretty vague, hehe. With some sort of strap that slips around one's foot to have more controlled upstrokes.

I like the concept of Sonor's double single pedal a lot more. Just seems more simple, it needs to be cheaper.

[ledzeppelins666]

I consider it cheating. I have played around with it. I play a double-pedal, and I sometimes think it chokes the head. This piece of crap when playing at a fast enough speed makes the bass drum sound like it is stuffed with pillows to the very top.


What I don't consider cheating is the double pedal. I think of it as a more cost-effective way to play without two huge, exspensive bass drums. I have an Iron Cobra and I love it. I mostly just use it for triplets up to a crash and snare flam or when Im mad and start trying to play metal.


Overall, a waste of money. I would hate the next so-called Buddy Rich to use one of those.

[brokenhalo]

I think if the pedal had direct linkages, with the left's linkage being on the other side of the cam, if anybody gets what I mean, I am pretty vague, hehe. With some sort of strap that slips around one's foot to have more controlled upstrokes.

why would you need a strap? you already have perfect control of the upstroke with the dualist.

i'm trying to figure out what your going for with the direct linkages on the cam. there has to be two cams. if both linkages went to the same cam then nothing would happen.....and direct drive versus strap doesnt really matter in terms of mechanics. its just a different feel.

[k3ng]

Gosh this thread is interesting.

When I saw the dualist for the first time, I was 'I have to have one of those.' But then I thought, hey, I'll be much more impressive when I use a single pedal to do super speeds! (Hence I don't even own a double pedal... Stupid double pedal users! Gyaahhh =P)

Anyways, I think we should stop condemning people who use the dualist. It's personal preference. I wouldn't use it, mainly because I think I'll look much better and more impressive with a single pedal. =P It'll also be a personal pride in achieving great speeds without the help of mechanics. But I wouldn't condemn those people who use it as 'cheaters'. There isn't any 'cheating' in music. It's not an exam with a panel of judges to see how you perform. It's just, playing.

Another thing, I do salute the pedal as an amazing invention. Perhaps in the future, drummers will be presented with a whole bunch of technological advancements that will help, or any other word you should choose, drummers to achieve certain things they could not before. It is just a matter of choosing which ones you will use when given to you. I didn't choose a double pedal when presented with one. (I had the money all ready to get one but didn't).

The whole 'dualist is cheating. It's stupid. It's not good' argument should cease. Perhaps we should get percussionist to debate against the usage of drumsticks. Play with your hands you cheaters!

=P

-Charlie

[Deathmetalconga]

What I don't consider cheating is the double pedal. I think of it as a more cost-effective way to play without two huge, exspensive bass drums. I have an Iron Cobra and I love it. I mostly just use it for triplets up to a crash and snare flam or when Im mad and start trying to play metal.


Overall, a waste of money. I would hate the next so-called Buddy Rich to use one of those.

Now THAT'S funny. Buddy Rich never used double pedals and he would certainly have considered double pedals "cheating." You're avoiding the real issue, which is: You need two pedals to accomplish what Buddy Rich did with one. Cheating indeed.

From the sound of it, you really don't use your double pedals much and I wonder how much you really tried to use The Duallist. This pedal will force you to rethink your entire approach to the drumset, but only if you adjust it correctly and invest the time and effort to learn it. You can't get away with saying it's too easy AND too difficult in the same breath.

I consider double pedals inefficient, clumsy and they preclude full hi-hat use. If a major manufacturer produced The Duallist and "legitimized" it with a huge promotional campaign, they'd have wider acceptance.

[Fat Elvis]

well i certainly dont consider a Dualist cheating, but then again I dont consider it the same as playing a double pedal -- which i dont consider the same as speed with a single pedal (i.e. I could do "good times, bad times" triplets with my double, but not a single -- im sure bonham would be less than impressed with that one as well).

I decided to stick with my DW 5002 Double Pedal and I am glad I did. I found that I was able to start picking up playing double pretty easily (for what i do right now). Triplets and some really cool patterns are not that hard to pick up on -- just takes a bit of practice. I would equate this practice time equal to someone getting used to a beater hit when you lift the pedal. Im SURE that learning to do 16th's on a dualist would be quicker than learning to do it on a traditional double pedal, but i bet learning to do triplets or syncopated patterns would probably take a similar amount of time.

[Deathmetalconga]

Fat Elvis, these are good observations you make. Some things are easier with the Duallist and some things are harder. What makes the Duallist more accessible is that it immediately puts your right-foot chops to work. I tried double pedals and they seemed clumsy and disorienting and I lost use of the hi hat.

Of course, if someone doesn't have good right-foot chops, The Duallist isn't going to do much for them anyway. It merely allows you to use your existing skills in a different way, without having to learn a whole new skill (left foot bass pedal control).

[atomicsoy]

hmm... technology... amazed!!! i even dont own a double pedal since im kindda new in drummings. but where i can see it, dualist opens up a new oportunity to explore. now u can have 3 beaters instead of 2. maybe even 4. as in the old days u only can have 1. its tech improvement. tech doesnt neccecary makes u lazy. its like computers speed.

anyway my point is, its not cheating n a great technological enhancement.

peace

[Supersteve]

Ok I do not get the big deal with being able to play at a blazin fast speed. It is all about the groove of the music. The elusive pocket. Plus what is the fastest tempo you ever need to play anyhow?

[Supersteve]

well i certainly dont consider a Dualist cheating, but then again I dont consider it the same as playing a double pedal -- which i dont consider the same as speed with a single pedal (i.e. I could do "good times, bad times" triplets with my double, but not a single -- im sure bonham would be less than impressed with that one as well).

I decided to stick with my DW 5002 Double Pedal and I am glad I did. I found that I was able to start picking up playing double pretty easily (for what i do right now). Triplets and some really cool patterns are not that hard to pick up on -- just takes a bit of practice. I would equate this practice time equal to someone getting used to a beater hit when you lift the pedal. Im SURE that learning to do 16th's on a dualist would be quicker than learning to do it on a traditional double pedal, but i bet learning to do triplets or syncopated patterns would probably take a similar amount of time.

That brings up a interesting question. Would John Bonham have used this petal?

[defunkt]

I really doubt you could actually get as much control with the dualist anyway because to change from double to single you have to click the thing which would be hard at fast tempos

[altered_beast]

Ok I do not get the big deal with being able to play at a blazin fast speed. It is all about the groove of the music. The elusive pocket. Plus what is the fastest tempo you ever need to play anyhow?

Try to find a groove in black metal. Most of that stuff is pretty fast.

[Jay.B.]

I consider it cheating. I have played around with it. I play a double-pedal, and I sometimes think it chokes the head. This piece of crap when playing at a fast enough speed makes the bass drum sound like it is stuffed with pillows to the very top.

How can it choke the bass drum when the twin beaters hit the head in the same way that a double pedal does? I have tried one, and it "sounded" no different to a normal double pedal.

There are advantages, I would like to throw some double pedal stuff in to what I play, occasionally, but I'm more concerned about the feel and patterns on the hi-hat. If I were to go down that route I would certainly consider getting one of these for that purpose only, my other choice is pearls eliminator, normal double pedal feel allows you to do different things, like the triplets that were mentioned earlier.

So as for the cheating issue... I don't think so, as it's possible to do things that aren't possible with a normal double pedal.

But for the time being I'm more than happy with my stock pearl P120-P

[Supersteve]

Try to find a groove in black metal. Most of that stuff is pretty fast.

True I agee there., but I think metal is the eception where using a bass petal is a norm and not "cheating" as some seem to think. As some of the speeds played in metal is just not possible on a single petal. The speed kinda is the groove in metal. I like the idea of the small duelist pedal as it takes up less space but does the same thing as a double petal.

The 3 beater pedal seems overkill to me.

[Deathmetalconga]

How can it choke the bass drum when the twin beaters hit the head in the same way that a double pedal does? I have tried one, and it "sounded" no different to a normal double pedal.

There are advantages, I would like to throw some double pedal stuff in to what I play, occasionally, but I'm more concerned about the feel and patterns on the hi-hat. If I were to go down that route I would certainly consider getting one of these for that purpose only, my other choice is pearls eliminator, normal double pedal feel allows you to do different things, like the triplets that were mentioned earlier.

So as for the cheating issue... I don't think so, as it's possible to do things that aren't possible with a normal double pedal.

But for the time being I'm more than happy with my stock pearl P120-P

Very true. If you use a double pedal, you will have to spend a lot of time to get your left foot to do what your right foot already does well, and you will have limited use for it. I like my Duallist because I can put my right-foot skills to work and weave the hi-hat or foot percussion into the groove.

A Duallist allows you to do some things a double pedal cannot and a double pedal allows you to do some things a Duallist cannot and a both of them allow you to do things a single pedal cannot. It's as simple and as complicated as that.

www.terrasonus.com

[Synthetik]

At the GC drum off a couple weeks back, one guy had a duellist. It didn't seem like there were too many practical applications for the pedal. What he did do with it, was try to make kick parts seem fuller with more notes. This wasn't necessarily good, it was just more than a single pedal playing the same strokes.

I am not sure you'd want or use the duellist pedal outside of speed metal or similar music.

[Deathmetalconga]

At the GC drum off a couple weeks back, one guy had a duellist. It didn't seem like there were too many practical applications for the pedal. What he did do with it, was try to make kick parts seem fuller with more notes. This wasn't necessarily good, it was just more than a single pedal playing the same strokes.

I am not sure you'd want or use the duellist pedal outside of speed metal or similar music.

I am not sure you'd want to base your opinion on it just from just that one example. In fact, it sounds like this person had trouble controlling it.

I've been playing one since March in my world fusion band, which is about as far from speed metal as you can get. It's exquisite for shuffles, ghost notes, funky phrases and of course the mindless dugga-dugga stuff.

Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

www.terrasonus.com

[Synthetik]

I am not sure you'd want to base your opinion on it just from just that one example. In fact, it sounds like this person had trouble controlling it.

I've been playing one since March in my world fusion band, which is about as far from speed metal as you can get. It's exquisite for shuffles, ghost notes, funky phrases and of course the mindless dugga-dugga stuff.

Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

www.terrasonus.com

Yeah, that's the limit to my experiance with the duellist. The sonor giant-step twin effect might be a similar acting pedal. (rocking motion/double strokes)

[Latin Groover]

Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

www.terrasonus.com

Yea me and a mate were thinking of these sorts of ideas. We came up with the fastest pedal in the world, and the stupidest.

Imagine a dbl pedal, so one for each foot right.
then you know the sonor twin fx pedals, imagine the pedals being that. So a heel plate as well as a toe plate for each foot so thats 4 beaters then each plate has a dualist on it. so 8 beaters in total. YEAAAA!

[lildrumaboyDW]

i wuz wonderin if anyone has tryed putting two on two seperate bass drums and playing that way

[Deathmetalconga]

i wuz wonderin if anyone has tryed putting two on two seperate bass drums and playing that way

Simon Glockler with Saxon does that. I guess you could go FAST that way!

www.terrasonus.com

[f4phantom2500]

Ok, if someone already said this and I didn't read it, sorry, it's a huge thread. But my friend and I debated this for about 2 hours a couple of weeks ago. He originally thought it wasn't cheating, I originally thought it was.

Basically, his point was that it's an innovation to make drumming easier and open up your playing style; he related it to Yamaha's Nouveau lug and the like. To the Nouveau lug I said that the pedal affects the way you play directly, whereas the Nouveau lug affects the way you set it up and only saves time, and while the pedal "saves time" (you could do the same number of strokes on a normal single pedal, it would just take longer), timing is important in drumming, but nobody cares if it takes you more time to set up your drums.

To his main argument, my point was that the pedal is innovation on the manufacturer's part, not the drummer's part, and since it's not a standard (eg you can't do what you can do on it on other pedals), that it's cheating. He countered this by saying that traditional double bass setups (2 bass drums/double pedal) are cheating, because the end result is the same: double bass effects. I said that traditional double bass is not cheating because it's using something that's already available to you (bass drums and single pedals) and just getting more of it (or in the case of a double pedal, emulating this effect). He said that double bass does the same thing as the duallist (double bass effects on a single drum), which it does not because it is not only emulating the effect but the actual playing style, and that you are still using your left leg; that you play double bass pedal/drums fundamentally the same: with both feet. Another point of his was that the duallist is a great innovation because it uses the upstroke. I told him that this the foundation of its cheating, because you can not utilize the upstroke like that on any other pedal, and that you really are not learning a new technique, just timing your upstroke. To illustrate my point, I said that if someone could develop a technique that would utilize the upstroke, then I would completely support it because it is innovation on the part of the drummer, not the manufacturer. As a reference, I pointed out that the heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques all emulate double bass effects on a single pedal, and that these are all innovations in technique.

This is basically how the argument went, and I was eventually able to convince him that the duallist is, in fact, a cheater pedal because it uses something that you could not use on any other pedal, and although it is a technical innovation, it is not a standard and will not become a standard, and since it is an innovation on the part of the manufacturer and not an innovation on the part of the drummer (such as heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques), it is not really innovative to playing drums (plus the concept has been around for at least 70 years anyway).

[Deathmetalconga]

Ok, if someone already said this and I didn't read it, sorry, it's a huge thread. But my friend and I debated this for about 2 hours a couple of weeks ago. He originally thought it wasn't cheating, I originally thought it was.

Basically, his point was that it's an innovation to make drumming easier and open up your playing style; he related it to Yamaha's Nouveau lug and the like. To the Nouveau lug I said that the pedal affects the way you play directly, whereas the Nouveau lug affects the way you set it up and only saves time, and while the pedal "saves time" (you could do the same number of strokes on a normal single pedal, it would just take longer), timing is important in drumming, but nobody cares if it takes you more time to set up your drums.

To his main argument, my point was that the pedal is innovation on the manufacturer's part, not the drummer's part, and since it's not a standard (eg you can't do what you can do on it on other pedals), that it's cheating. He countered this by saying that traditional double bass setups (2 bass drums/double pedal) are cheating, because the end result is the same: double bass effects. I said that traditional double bass is not cheating because it's using something that's already available to you (bass drums and single pedals) and just getting more of it (or in the case of a double pedal, emulating this effect). He said that double bass does the same thing as the duallist (double bass effects on a single drum), which it does not because it is not only emulating the effect but the actual playing style, and that you are still using your left leg; that you play double bass pedal/drums fundamentally the same: with both feet. Another point of his was that the duallist is a great innovation because it uses the upstroke. I told him that this the foundation of its cheating, because you can not utilize the upstroke like that on any other pedal, and that you really are not learning a new technique, just timing your upstroke. To illustrate my point, I said that if someone could develop a technique that would utilize the upstroke, then I would completely support it because it is innovation on the part of the drummer, not the manufacturer. As a reference, I pointed out that the heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques all emulate double bass effects on a single pedal, and that these are all innovations in technique.

This is basically how the argument went, and I was eventually able to convince him that the duallist is, in fact, a cheater pedal because it uses something that you could not use on any other pedal, and although it is a technical innovation, it is not a standard and will not become a standard, and since it is an innovation on the part of the manufacturer and not an innovation on the part of the drummer (such as heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques), it is not really innovative to playing drums (plus the concept has been around for at least 70 years anyway).

Ahem, have you actually PLAYED a Duallist, or talked with anyone who has?

You need good right foot skills to play this pedal and control its movements. I've played one since March and it's totally changed my approach to the drumset. It's not harder than a double pedal, or easier. Just very different. And it's a kick in the pants to play! Yes, FUN, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

From my perspective, traditional double pedals are clumsy, inefficient and outdated and those who think The Duallist is cheating are insecure that all the time they put into double pedals doesn't amount to squat. With the Duallist and sufficient practice, I can do most of what a double pedal does. I put my hard-earned right-foot skills to immediate use and leave my left foot to do what it does best. As it is, I only need double beater capability about 10 percent of the time. I have better things to do than invest many hours in developing double pedal skills that I will use 10 percent of the time.

Plus, I don't have ROOM for a double pedal (see http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18719) - I have a foot-operated talking drum, a hihat and a percussion pedal for my left foot. A double pedal in that context is just a silly redundancy.

www.terrasonus.com

[Fat Elvis]

whether its cheating or not, i think there is one truth --

if you play a dualist, you may be able to impress other drummers with the sound you create, but you probably won't be able to impress them with the technique in which you made it.

[f4phantom2500]

whether its cheating or not, i think there is one truth --

if you play a dualist, you may be able to impress other drummers with the sound you create, but you probably won't be able to impress them with the technique in which you made it.

And that is why it will always be regarded as cheating, because the majority of drummers view it that way.

[Fat Elvis]

Ahem, have you actually PLAYED a Duallist, or talked with anyone who has?

You need good right foot skills to play this pedal and control its movements. I've played one since March and it's totally changed my approach to the drumset. It's not harder than a double pedal, or easier. Just very different. And it's a kick in the pants to play! Yes, FUN, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

From my perspective, traditional double pedals are clumsy, inefficient and outdated and those who think The Duallist is cheating are insecure that all the time they put into double pedals doesn't amount to squat. With the Duallist and sufficient practice, I can do most of what a double pedal does. I put my hard-earned right-foot skills to immediate use and leave my left foot to do what it does best. As it is, I only need double beater capability about 10 percent of the time. I have better things to do than invest many hours in developing double pedal skills that I will use 10 percent of the time.

Plus, I don't have ROOM for a double pedal (see http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18719) - I have a foot-operated talking drum, a hihat and a percussion pedal for my left foot. A double pedal in that context is just a silly redundancy.

www.terrasonus.com

as a wise man once said, it matters not whether its true -- its the perception of truth that really matters. Im sure you are going to impress every non-drummer that hears you play it. However i think if you are looking for kudos from other drummers on your dualist, you will only get that from other dualist players.

I think after 7 pages of this thread, that, at least, is apparent.

[Shinx]

Any innovation that can help drummers play more interesting and fun stuff should be considered a good thing. My only problem with it is the slave beater. The fact that the pedal itself is moving the beater makes it very awkward, though I guess it could supply some ridiculous ghost notes if you were playing it right. If you claim to be the greatest pedal player in the world because you have a dualist, you're an idiot, but it can help with some cool tricky things. It might not what "the greats" used and maybe they really were that good, but I'm sure a lot of them would have loved to use it. They didn't have remote hats or triggers either, but they probably would have liked to

Hah not too sure about when triggers or remote hats came out so dont quote me on that

Also, this has been discussed because I remember making a similar argument

[Chip]

I'm going to say most of what I thought when I said the stuff earlier in this thread is wrong.

Really. The goal as the drummer (timekeeping aside) is to play for the band, as a musician. Not play as a drummer to music. Playing music. The way to achieve this is playing what fits the song, interlocking with the bass player and many other brilliant things Lutz or one of the wise sages could tell you about at great length. Not care if something is cheating or not. Programming drum sounds? No. Something that you don't have control of in terms of dynamics... I wouldn't call music. To me, music is very much in dynamics and how you play the note, perhaps more than what notes are played.

The Dualist. Are the dynamics able to be controlled? Is there real-time control over what is being played? Yes. So, in my books, the dualist is an innovation, a tool if you will, so acheive sounds that you cannot with a traditional double pedal. The traditional double pedal does seem a little archaic. It inhibits you if you seek to play something with the hihat closed. Deathmetalconga plays a lot of world music, and I'm damn positive there is a lot of appliction there. I know I personally do a lot of hihat 8th with the foot, and I ocasionally think of a little double pedal sticking that I can't play because of it's basic design.

A dualist I would like is one with which you could change the beater (left/right) with that foot doo-hickey instead of single/double mode. Two different bass drums in one! Again, I struggle to do so with a traditional double (unless it's an open hihat or a ride pattern, I've trained my left foot) as I have to move my right foot over to the left pedal, which is very unergonomic and uncomfortable. The change in feel between the sounds is quite large and significant.

The dualist is just another tool for achieving that sound that one seeks. Even if it is "cheating".

[Fat Elvis]

well, as far as i can see, freeing up your left foot is its sole benefit. And that is a big benefit -- im not down-playing that one at all. However i do not feel that the double kick pedal is archaic at all -- especially since there is more potential for control, power and dynamic with two feet controling two seperate pedals as opposed to one foot controlling one pedal in a down and up fashion. Personally i would rather rely on the downward stroke of my left foot then the upward stroke of my right -- and again, i am speaking from a point of view of control, power and dynamic.

Those that we all look up to in the drumming world (benny greb, carter beauford, neil peart, etc) use a traditional double pedal as opposed to a dualist. Carter Beauford has some of the most intricate high-hat work found anywhere. I guess what it comes down to is if the dualist was so great, why have not pro's picked up on them? Are they wasting their time with the traditional double pedal? I think not.

Again, i dont think i will ever see a day that the dualist is taken seriously. Partially because it conveys this whole "cheating" argument, partially because it is plastic in a "more metal is better" kick pedal world, partially because it did not come from an already respected brand in drums as a side idea in pedal design, partially because there is a big, dumb pink logo on the pedal.

Im sure my band would not blink an eye to me using a dualist -- and i do a lot of double-bass work. I dont use a dualist personally because i do not feel it would further my understanding of drumming and rhythm in the way i feel i need to understand it.

I would be happy listening to a drummer play with a band with a dualist -- it is really all about the music. But would i go up to the drummer and give him a high-five for his sweet kick drum chops after the show? No.

[Chip]

I'm not saying the double pedal is crap. Or I wouldn't have one (although I got it when I was (more of) an idiot). It does have wonderful uses.

But. I feel that the creativity is in some way altered by it's limitations. Yes, the way they use it is still musical, but wouldn't you agree that it would have a plethora of new patterns to play?

I'm just saying that the Dualist, in my opinion, is smarter in every way apart from the unnatural motion require to use it (usually, we hit things and they make a sound, not on the upstroke). It has 95% of the capabitilites (of the remaining 5%, not much is that useful) of the traditional double pedal (with applied practise), with the freeing of the left foot included.

I would believe that this unnatural motion and the daunting nature of re-learning everything would scare the pros away. And perhaps this 'cheating' deal that seems to be included might have something to do with it. It is also a relatively new design, and no famous or influential drummer has used one. After a really popular or influential/inspiring/innovative drummer really shows the potential of the pedal, I'd think it'd grow in popularity. Not the videos on the site, they seem to just show chugga-chugga cliche stuff, not some creative, innovative ideas.

I'd need some help from DMC on this one, but I'm guessing the dualist is a lot like a tambourine or an egg shaker. People say, "oh, that's easy. All you have to do is shake it". I dare you to try and get even 16ths on one of those without shuffling. It's nigh impossible on the first try, let alone within 10 minutes! Then throw in the fact that other people have to use a normal pedal, and voila; a recipe for "cheating". It is a task in itself (from reading DMC's posts) to learn the dualist. It would basically be like learning to play double pedal again.

So go and get an egg shaker and find out how hard it is!!! :)

Edit: Also, the hihat is a very versatile and sensitive instrument on it's own. The sensistivity and tone you can acheive with just a tiny movement of a small muscle makes a surprising impact on the overall feel. What about a hihat swing pattern and snare comping, but instead of throwing in syncopated single bass drum strokes ("bombing"), throw in a single stroke four with an accent on the last stroke (ghosted triplets preceding the "bomb"). How cool would that be?! Ok, ok. I'm a drum nerd...

[Deathmetalconga]

[QUOTE=Chip;244902]I'm not saying the double pedal is crap. Or I wouldn't have one (although I got it when I was (more of) an idiot). It does have wonderful uses.

But. I feel that the creativity is in some way altered by it's limitations. Yes, the way they use it is still musical, but wouldn't you agree that it would have a plethora of new patterns to play?

I'm just saying that the Dualist, in my opinion, is smarter in every way apart from the unnatural motion require to use it (usually, we hit things and they make a sound, not on the upstroke). It has 95% of the capabitilites (of the remaining 5%, not much is that useful) of the traditional double pedal (with applied practise), with the freeing of the left foot included.

[QUOTE]

Very well put. Here's some more perspective.

At first, people hit hollow logs with mastodon bones. I could imagine the howls of "cheating!!" when someone put a taper on a wood stick to get more bounce: "The stick is doing the work for you. It's not hard enough anymore." As we know, controlling stick rebound is a huge area of study. And for a Duallist player, controlling two beaters with one foot is the secret of this instrument.

On one hand, people say the Duallist is hard to control and awkward, and on the other hand they say it's cheating and a shortcut. You can't have it both ways. From another perspective, that just shows people don't really understand what this pedal is all about. People who have never even seen one have the strongest opinions on it.

Pros don't use it because they can afford to spend 8 hours a day practising their double pedals, even though they might need double pedals infrequently, and they get lucrative endorsement deals to play certain gear. I don't have that kind of time or influence on my creative process. The Duallist gives me double-beater options on tap whenever I need it, which isn't often, and I have my left foot totally free.

As for impressing other drummers, I put the audience first, my bandmates second and myself third. Other drummers that check out my set and pedals are amazed and impressed I get so many sounds from two feet.

www.terrasonus.com

[f4phantom2500]

At first, people hit hollow logs with mastodon bones.

Source?

I could imagine the howls of "cheating!!" when someone put a taper on a wood stick to get more bounce: "The stick is doing the work for you. It's not hard enough anymore."

As far as I can tell, that's more akin to changing the cam on a Pearl Eliminator than adding an extra beater that's indirectly activated by the upstroke.


On one hand, people say the Duallist is hard to control and awkward, and on the other hand they say it's cheating and a shortcut. You can't have it both ways.

Yes you can, it's hard to control and awkward because people are used to the pedal doing nothing on the upstroke, it's a shortcut/cheating because it allows you to do more than with a normal pedal with relatively little invested effort (learning to control the upstroke).

From another perspective, that just shows people don't really understand what this pedal is all about.

If it's not about having a beater hit on the upstroke, then what is it all about?

People who have never even seen one have the strongest opinions on it.

Though it is true that they have strong opinions, your desire to defend the pedal seems even stronger.

Pros don't use it because they can afford to spend 8 hours a day practising their double pedals, even though they might need double pedals infrequently, and they get lucrative endorsement deals to play certain gear.

That may be part of the reason, but you should take into account the fact that most drummers look down upon the duallist, so also consider the likelihood that many pro's think it's a cheater pedal, too, and even if they don't they know that many of their drummer fans would look down upon them because, as we all know, most drummers look down upon the Duallist. Besides, it looks like a toy because it looks mostly plastic; most pros want gear that looks pro.


I don't have that kind of time or influence on my creative process. The Duallist gives me double-beater options on tap whenever I need it, which isn't often, and I have my left foot totally free.

Since you don't have the time, and the Duallist is your answer, isn't that kind of like saying that it's a shortcut? Also note that you implied that pro's don't need it because they spend 8 hours a day practicing. Isn't that also like saying that it is a shortcut? Besides, if it works for you, then great, but it still won't change the fact that I and many other drummers think it's cheating. I'll listen to your music and enjoy it, but I, personally, will respect you less for it because you're not coming up with a solution on your own, you're enlisting the help of the Duallist. As you said, you don't have the time or influence to do it without the Duallist, so how is it not a "cheat" in that sense? What it all comes down to is that it's a supplement for your lack of ability on any other pedal (not that you're a bad drummer, but that really is what it comes down to...and if not then why don't you just use a normal pedal?)

As for impressing other drummers, I put the audience first, my bandmates second and myself third.

Well, then, why are you even arguing here?

Other drummers that check out my set and pedals are amazed and impressed I get so many sounds from two feet.

I can't say that I've heard you play, but honestly, I don't think I would be amazed if I saw a Duallist, because if your feet's repertoire really were quite so grand I would expect something like a Duallist and would only be amazed/impressed if I saw a normal pedal back there.

[Deathmetalconga]

most drummers look down upon the duallist


Source? Your imagination, I think, unless you have some survey.

I have difficulty giving much credence to opinions, which are based only on supposition and completely lacking in direct experience. You've never even seen a Duallist, yet you've developed very detailed opinions on how it works, why it works, what it does, what it doesn't do, how difficult it is to use. etc. etc. The feel is totally different from a conventional pedal and requires great control and discipline - but you wouldn't know that because you've never played one.

Admit it, you're upset and envious because you're afraid the Duallist makes double pedals obsolete and shows how clumsy and inefficient they really are. As far as I'm concerned and for my own setup, they've gone the way mastodon bones.

The fact that you "look down" on my setup means absolutely nothing to me, other than an opportunity to set the record straight about this wonderful and revolutionary new instrument. Me and the many other Duallist players will continue to smoke you with one foot!

www.terrasonus.com

[Synthetik]

The Duallist is a means to an end. It's a new tool to employ to perhaps do things a different way.

Scoffing at it, is no different than some in the drumming community scoffing at Louis Bellson when he started the double kick kit. I remember the drummer from The Knack saying in an MD interview: "Two (kicks) is cheating." We all know how that turned out.

The sonor giant step dual action isn't far removed from that concept either. yet it avoids such harsh rhetoric afforded the duellist.

I have seen what the duallist can do at a drum off, and they are impressive.

[f4phantom2500]

Source? Your imagination, I think, unless you have some survey.

I have difficulty giving much credence to opinions, which are based only on supposition and completely lacking in direct experience. You've never even seen a Duallist, yet you've developed very detailed opinions on how it works, why it works, what it does, what it doesn't do, how difficult it is to use. etc. etc. The feel is totally different from a conventional pedal and requires great control and discipline - but you wouldn't know that because you've never played one.

Admit it, you're upset and envious because you're afraid the Duallist makes double pedals obsolete and shows how clumsy and inefficient they really are. As far as I'm concerned and for my own setup, they've gone the way mastodon bones.

The fact that you "look down" on my setup means absolutely nothing to me, other than an opportunity to set the record straight about this wonderful and revolutionary new instrument. Me and the many other Duallist players will continue to smoke you with one foot!

www.terrasonus.com

Please, explain it to me then. How does it work? Why does it work? What does it do? What doesn't it do? What makes it so different from a conventional pedal, other than the switch on the heel plate and the 2nd beater? Even though I have, in fact, never played one, your claim that I have not is based on supposition...unless some of my claims about the pedal are totally inaccurate, in which case I would encourage you to set me straight. I'm not going to admit envy or fear of the Duallist because of the possibility that it makes all other pedals obsolete, because I don't feel that it does. What makes the Duallist better than all the other double beater single pedals (eg Sonor Giant Step Twin Effect)? Also, my opinion apparently does matter, else you wouldn't be throwing accusations my way. As far as a 'survey', I would say that this thread is survey enough; I skimmed the first few pages, and it seems that there's more people that are against it than for it...also take into account the fact that most people are sooner to stand up and support something they believe in than they are to attack something they dislike when it is already being attacked (unless they severely dislike it or don't mind putting forth the effort to do so). So, using the posts in this thread as a guide, it can be assumed that most people look down upon the Duallist. Also, consider that a lot of drummers probably do not know about it (I remember reading a thing about a drum clinic where the guy had a double pedal, and someone in the audience was amazed because he didn't even know that they existed...do you really think he knows about the Duallist?), and that most of them (same logic as this thread...a large enough random sample [~30] should give a good general idea of the overall outlook of a population]) are probably against the idea (again, using this thread as a guide). That's my source. What's yours on the mammoth bones on the log? And as far as you and all the other Duallist players smoking me with one foot, I thought it wasn't about being able to play it with one foot, I thought it was just a means to an end? Besides, how would you know for sure that you could play faster with 1 foot on your duallist than I could play on a good double pedal?

You know what I think? I think the only reason you believe the Duallist is not cheating is because you try to justify using it. I think that you're trying to find every somewhat supportable reason there is to justify using it yourself, so that you won't feel like a cheater.

[syaoran05]

i posted somewhere in this thread that the duallist is some kind of a cheat, but not really, and it depends on how you use it. the problem is on what grounds will it be not cheating.

then i just woke up with an idea where using a duallist would not be considered cheating.



the idea of most people on the duallist is that it is a pedal that does the work of a double pedal [or double bass] using only a single pedal. people say that it is cheating because it sacrifices proper technique.



now my point. the duallist is NOT a form of cheating. why?

its simply a pedal that integrates the speed of a double pedal into a single pedal. note: SPEED.

there is no doubt that there are speeds that cannot be achieved with single pedals. so single pedals are out of this issue.

double pedals enable drummers to do continuous bass drum rolls at great speeds. now, to be able to do that, the drummer must put both of his feet on the double pedals. this makes two things true: you need two feet to be able to do a double pedal riff/roll and your other foot will not be able to use any other pedal.

now suppose im this very creative drummer and i think "what if i make a riff that goes with this steady 200bpm bass roll and funky hi hat patterns?".

i cant do that riff using only an ordinary double bass because i wont be able to keep the hats closed. a hi hat clutch would make no sense because it will sacrifice my hi hat's playability.

the only option i have is the duallist. would using the duallist be cheating in this case? no. if it is cheating, i want to see you do that with your double pedal.


another scenario: suppose im a creative samba drummer, and i have a left foot cowbell. i want a steady double bass roll - no pauses for a fast samba beat. i cant play the samba with a double bass pedal because i wont be able to use my foot for the left foot clave. would using a duallist for this purpose be chating? no. if it is cheating, i want to see you do that with your double pedal.


now, there are things that only a double bass pedal can do, like syncopates and fast triplets and the like. even the duallist cannot do that. yeah, even the three beater-two pedal version.


what's my point? the point is that the duallist is a tool that has a specific use and must be used properly, just like a single pedal and double pedal.

a single pedal is limited to a certain speed, but is a very controllable and creative pedal, and one must work in the bounds of its limits.

a double pedal enables a person do to bass drum riffs more than twice the speed of a single pedal; sacrificing hi hat and clave playability without sacrificing bass pattern creativity, and one must work in the bounds of its limits.

a duallist enables a person to do even double bass rolls at the same speed as a double pedal without sacrificing left foot use, and one must work in the bounds of its limits.


a duallist enables a drummer to be more creative by enabling him to use an already established sound [double bass] and freeing him of some of the limitations of that established sound.


there is no cheating in using a duallist, only poor drumming values. drumming values include proper techniques, musicianship, skill, honor and humility.

just like a person must go through single pedal training before he could use the double pedal, a person must also go both single and double pedal training before he can use the duallist. otherwise, he is not developing himself properly as a drummer.

the duallist is a tool, and it is up to the person if he wants to use it properly or not. it is by no means cheating, it can only be a drumming tool in the hands of a person with poor drumming values [or none at all].

people who once used double bass and switched to the duallist and are happy with it simply found a better tool for what they have to do in their drumming.

now people who are ignorant and think they can finally do double bass beats with the duallist are just plain stupid because they only think they have become better, but they actually are not. in this case, the duallist is not a means of cheating, only a tool in the hands of a person with poor drumming values. AND that person is just a plain idiot.


there is no cheating, only poor drumming values. it is not the duallist's fault, it is the fault of the one who uses the duallist when he decides to shun musicality and technique for earcandy, eyecandy and bragging rights.

[Chip]

I think that you're trying to find every somewhat supportable reason there is to justify using it yourself, so that you won't feel like a cheater.

I'd be more inclined to say that he is much more focused on getting what sounds he wants, rather than worry about if it's cheating or not. Why does it matter?! Why do people get so worried about it? At the end of the day, it's all about what sounds we make. Not how or who or through what pedal. WHAT.

As I said earlier, I believe the design of the traditional double pedal is archaic compared to the Dualist. That being, it takes the simpler choice while neglecting full utilisation of the hihat. Some person has obviously been playing using a double pedal and thought, "Gee, wouldn't it be great if I could still operate the hihat?" Then with some clever innovation they invented the Dualist. The Dualist simply enables use of the hihat.

it allows you to do more than with a normal pedal with relatively little invested effort (learning to control the upstroke).
With the tone in this comment, you make it sound so easy. As DMC and many other Dualist users will tell you, it's no task to sneeze at. It is difficult. As they also say, it's about as difficult as learning double pedal. For a way you can understand how difficult it is that doesn't mean you need to find a Dualist user or buy one, get a tambourine or some maracas/an egg shaker as I said earlier. It isn't as easy as it appears. Plus, it's not as though the extra energy to move another beater appears out of nowhere (Newton wouldn't like that). It still requires the same physical effort.

Admit it, you're upset and envious because you're afraid the Duallist makes double pedals obsolete and shows how clumsy and inefficient they really are.
I wouldn't go so far as to say 'upset and envious'. I personally think it's a great idea, and if it can more allow a drummer to play what they feel and think and improvise more creatively, that's great. Personally, my mind doesn't think in double pedal. I see the bass drum as a different rhythm entity, and I don't ever find much use for some thing faster than my right foot will go.

If it's not about having a beater hit on the upstroke, then what is it all about?
The pedal is all about freeing up the left foot. If you can think of a way that isn't "cheating", go right ahead.

so also consider the likelihood that many pro's think it's a cheater pedal
The pros probably see it as a great tool, and are less entangled about what everybody else is doing and how, and rather, practise or play

[goalieman92]

Just learn to heel-toe if you really want to get that fast, do it with a double pedal with each foot for all I care. I do it(with a single), but only because in the odd song i'll trow in some tripelets. I wouldn't use it enough to pay for a double pedal.

[Deathmetalconga]

now suppose im this very creative drummer and i think "what if i make a riff that goes with this steady 200bpm bass roll and funky hi hat patterns?".

i cant do that riff using only an ordinary double bass because i wont be able to keep the hats closed. a hi hat clutch would make no sense because it will sacrifice my hi hat's playability.

the only option i have is the duallist. would using the duallist be cheating in this case? no. if it is cheating, i want to see you do that with your double pedal.

another scenario: suppose im a creative samba drummer, and i have a left foot cowbell. i want a steady double bass roll - no pauses for a fast samba beat. i cant play the samba with a double bass pedal because i wont be able to use my foot for the left foot clave. would using a duallist for this purpose be chating? no. if it is cheating, i want to see you do that with your double pedal.

what's my point? the point is that the duallist is a tool that has a specific use and must be used properly, just like a single pedal and double pedal.

there is no cheating, only poor drumming values. it is not the duallist's fault, it is the fault of the one who uses the duallist when he decides to shun musicality and technique for earcandy, eyecandy and bragging rights.

Very thoughtful and well-stated. You have also made me consider my own relationship with my Duallist. Thank you.

www.terrasonus.com

[brokenhalo]

man. sorry to see you getting kicked around in here DMC. even if these other guys don't respect your playing, i still do. anyway, i was wondering how you were progressing with the duallist, now that you've been playing it these 8 or 9 months. my main problem with the pedal was that the beaters inertia seemed to only allow it a very narrow BPM range for comfortable 16th notes. anything slower, and the spring tension made the strokes hard to even out, and anything faster would of required some serious time working out my right leg. how is it working out for you? any magic adjustments that seemed to make a big difference?

[Deathmetalconga]

man. sorry to see you getting kicked around in here DMC. even if these other guys don't respect your playing, i still do. anyway, i was wondering how you were progressing with the duallist, now that you've been playing it these 8 or 9 months. my main problem with the pedal was that the beaters inertia seemed to only allow it a very narrow BPM range for comfortable 16th notes. anything slower, and the spring tension made the strokes hard to even out, and anything faster would of required some serious time working out my right leg. how is it working out for you? any magic adjustments that seemed to make a big difference?

Thank you for the kind words. Some folks around here are apparently obsessed with trying to belittle others and it's nice to hear someone who actually has experience with the pedal and can separate truth from urban myth.

As you know, the pedal has 11 adjustment points. I have spent hours over the past months tweaking them - when you adjust the tension on one spring, for example, it affects the throw, speed and resistance of both pedals. I think I have it to a good setting now for me: moderate tension on the primary beater, high tension on the secondary for maximum possible impact, close to the hoop as possible, short throw on the primary, long throw on the secondary, short shaft lengths. The primary beater has short strap length and the secondary has long strap.

I also have the secondary beater turned with the plastic side to the head and the primary with the felt side turned to the head.

I am making progress playing double stroke rolls, but it's very tricky. You must make two strokes below the midpoint and two stroke above it, mindful that each and every movement you make with your foot affects at least one beater. Paradiddles are a long, long way off, but I know I can do them with enough practice. I am also getting good at switching between single and dual modes on the fly.

The Duallist is truly a marvel of art and engineering and just hell of FUN to play and a great way to help me establish my own unique style.

www.terrasonus.com

[emmerson]

there no point to this pedal... drumming is more than speed let alone having more beaters than two? its pointless and a waste of money throw it away if you see one.

[Chip]

there no point to this pedal... drumming is more than speed let alone having more beaters than two? its pointless and a waste of money throw it away if you see one.
...Did you even read the thread? I'ts been justified about 5 times by about five seperate people.

[Latin Groover]

there no point to this pedal... drumming is more than speed let alone having more beaters than two? its pointless and a waste of money throw it away if you see one.

umm not the best post ive seen, (to put it politly) Yes, read the thread, "drumming is more than speed" no but its a good tool to have to express yourself through the instrument, there are threads all over about speed but the what i see as) the final outcome of these is that its "a good tool to have, but dont get too hung up on it) "let alone having more beaters than two" Do you mean on a whole kit cause thats just stupid, but im guessing you mean on the same voice, well actually DMC uses it only as a single with the echo beather on, which i think is quite a handy tool, i think that using the dbl as well is a bit silly although it does make some crazy things possible, but where would you use them? Although as a single with the 2nd beater i think is alright, although i dont think it should really be used for doing 16ths, cause yea the whole "not so even" thing, but for other things could be cool.

[the gayge]

The issue of cheating seems kind of ridiculous to me. How is it cheating? There is no end result and no winning on the instrument. On a similar note, poor drumming values? Calling someone an idiot for doing something differently than you is pretty unreasonable. I think you're an idiot for calling duallist users idiots. But now I'm an idiot, because name calling is immature and rude.

I'm sure using the pedal effectively takes plenty of time and practice. Being so vitriolic in response to something like a peice of gear is silly as hell. I mean really, the notes aren't being played for you...like you're verbally dictating what you want to hear to the pedal and it responds in part, the pedal requires technique and I'm sure a degree of finesse.

I can't see how something can be cheating in artistic expression.

[Deathmetalconga]

Although as a single with the 2nd beater i think is alright, although i dont think it should really be used for doing 16ths, cause yea the whole "not so even" thing, but for other things could be cool.

I thought that at first, but I'm amazed at how evenly it expresses 16ths. The secondary spring is plenty strong to bring the secondary beater down quite hard. The trade-off is the resistance increases. And with stronger tension, you must work harder to develop fine control and eliminate unwanted contact (i.e., unwanted ghost notes).

The Duallist is not a substitute for the double pedal - just as the double pedal is not a "cheater" version of the single pedal, a substitute for the double bass, or anything else other than a double pedal.

The Duallist is just ... The Duallist, one of many different designs for foot pedals that have evolved over a century. There are things a double can do that The Duallist cannot, and there are things The Duallist can do that a double cannot.

Like anything else, it comes with its own advantages and trade-offs. For someone who likes doing foot percussion and hihat work, yet wants double-beater capability, it's a Godsend. My left foot controls THREE pedals and I just don't have room for a double pedal, or the desire to train my left foot to do what my right foot can do already.

www.terrasonus.com

[Fat Elvis]

do you dualist users think that with the added resistance and the whole thought of the second beater hitting and all, do you feel it sort of ruins your use and feel for a standard single -- or even a standard double pedal?

sort of like if you play an E Kit for a long time, going back to an acoustic kit takes some retraining because the feel is completely different?

[Deathmetalconga]

do you dualist users think that with the added resistance and the whole thought of the second beater hitting and all, do you feel it sort of ruins your use and feel for a standard single -- or even a standard double pedal?

sort of like if you play an E Kit for a long time, going back to an acoustic kit takes some retraining because the feel is completely different?

That's a good question.

You learn to adjust to it. I imagine few double pedal users have the same tension and travel on their hihat stand and slave pedal, but they make the transition. Their right foot learns one resistance level, their left foot two.

My right foot learns two resistance levels, my left foot three. You'd be surprised what your feet are capable of dealing with - much as your hands are cabable of dealing with the different combinations of sticks, brushes, heads, cymbals and percussion.

www.terrasonus.com

[Josh is a cult]

woah good call deathmetalconga... i kinda noticed that also but i never thought about it like that..

[emmerson]

...Did you even read the thread? I'ts been justified about 5 times by about five seperate people.

im not going to read a thread of 7 pages and 10 posts and up just to see if my own opinion has been said already

[brokenhalo]

im not going to read a thread of 7 pages and 10 posts and up just to see if my own opinion has been said already


then why post? a post is supposed to be a CONTRIBUTION to a thread. if you don't have the time to figure out what the grown-ups are talking about, then keep your mouth shut.

[Fat Elvis]

then why post? a post is supposed to be a CONTRIBUTION to a thread. if you don't have the time to figure out what the grown-ups are talking about, then keep your mouth shut.

ironically, this post did not contribute to the thread. and lets all try a little civility and patience.

[emmerson]

then why post? a post is supposed to be a CONTRIBUTION to a thread. if you don't have the time to figure out what the grown-ups are talking about, then keep your mouth shut.

i feel a little hostility in the air .. and as a contribution to the thread i guess i would say there are benefits to having it but i personally would not choose it for myself

[Backwards Marathon]

The way i see it is quite simple really. You could either A) Go out and buy a normal double pedal, work really hard on it, and eventually feel a great sense of accomplishment once you acheive results. Or B) Go out, buy this pedal, and in a much shorter amount of time get results. This arguement will never end. I also have a lot more respect for a drummer if they got their speed by using a normal pedal, and not this Dualist. So do i see it as cheating? Yes.


Wes

[Deathmetalconga]

The way i see it is quite simple really. You could either A) Go out and buy a normal double pedal, work really hard on it, and eventually feel a great sense of accomplishment once you acheive results. Or B) Go out, buy this pedal, and in a much shorter amount of time get results. This arguement will never end. I also have a lot more respect for a drummer if they got their speed by using a normal pedal, and not this Dualist. So do i see it as cheating? Yes.

Wes


Well, under those criteria, you'd have to see double pedals as cheating.

A great single pedal player - Buddy Rich, just one example - could smoke just about any double pedal player. You could, A) Go out and by a normal single pedal, work really hard on it, and everytually feel a great sense of accomplishment once you achieve results or B) Buy a double pedal and in a much shorter amount of time get results.

I also have a lot more respect for a drummer if they got their speed by using a normal single pedal, and not double pedal. So do I see double pedals as cheating? Well, if I apply the same criteria as you do to The Duallist, double pedals are most assuredly a cheat.

You just don't hear this argument made much because double pedals are a cheat that has very wide acceptance and people appreciate the amount of effort that goes into them anyway - but they're still a cheat by your own criteria. I guess even cheating can take a lot of effort!

[Fat Elvis]

in all fairness and full disclosure, DMC, you mention this in an other recent thread:

A new Duallist (www.theduallist.com) is $350, but you may be able to find a used one for sale.I've used one since March and I love it! If you want to put your right foot skills to work immediately and start playing shuffles and 16ths right away, you should consider a Duallist. Doing double bass well takes serious commitment and many hours of practice and for what I do, I don't use double bass enough to justify that kind of investment of time and effort.

by that statement, it feels as though even you admit that one could get going with the dualist immediately, as well as you go on to say that a traditional double-pedal takes more commitment than you are willing to give -- which would also mean that you recommend the dualist because it is an easier work-around. Which, honestly, falls contrary to many of your statements in this thread.

[morbius25]

well if you think, that's not cheating! I mean it's a tool and technology is designed to make life easier! thousand of years ago, the first men will spend hours putting a fire, now with just matches, it's easier! is that cheating? :-/

Rigel

Yeah I am with him. You can rub two sticks together to build a fire, or just get a can full of gas and hand full of matches, and be warm......

[morbius25]

This may have already been posted but I am getting ready to go somewhere, and don't have the time to look, but what about this thing.............

http://www.sonor.com/cgi-sys/Sonor_FE/sonor/english/detail_std.html?button-kategorie_04-find_artikel=&a-kategorie_common-sz_CurrentKatLevel=04&5epb-id=wd250748fdc42ce1a682ed56bfe12bccdba8624a55c

[Fat Elvis]

Yeah I am with him. You can rub two sticks together to build a fire, or just get a can full of gas and hand full of matches, and be warm......

im sorry, but i have to disagree. The problem with this argument is one thing is born out of necessity and the other is recreational.

Let me explain it this way: In 1890, walking or taking your horse everywhere sucked, but thats the only option you had. Someone invented the car, and a better way was born (your match rationale).

However, if you are running a race, you are expected to develop your speed and skill and do the best job that you can. Jumping in a car and blowing everyone else away is cheating.

Drumming is recreational -- its a job for some, but it has become a job for them because they have developed their skills in a recreational environment. And as far as DMC's double kick pedal argument, i consider a double kick pedal akin to better shoes -- they dont do the work FOR YOU -- you still have to run just like you always did. The dualist would be like having shoes with little rockets on them... you take one step and then the rockets take another one for you. Its just not the same.

[Fat Elvis]

This may have already been posted but I am getting ready to go somewhere, and don't have the time to look, but what about this thing.............

http://www.sonor.com/cgi-sys/Sonor_FE/sonor/english/detail_std.html?button-kategorie_04-find_artikel=&a-kategorie_common-sz_CurrentKatLevel=04&5epb-id=wd250748fdc42ce1a682ed56bfe12bccdba8624a55c

i dont consider the giant step pedal the same as the dualist. You still have to actually play both strokes -- one is not played for you.

[dizkneelande]

That is, unless you're just playing double-kick as part of some kind of competition to see who has the fastest feet, but you people keep assuring me that it actually has a musical purpose...

i think this pretty much nails it

[ANIMALBEATS]

Yaw ta now.

Makes much sence of the subject.