the Dualist debate...

[morbius25]

Whats the point in an opinion anymore...... Its wrong not matter if you think its right........



I give up

[morbius25]

im sorry, but i have to disagree. The problem with this argument is one thing is born out of necessity and the other is recreational.

Let me explain it this way: In 1890, walking or taking your horse everywhere sucked, but thats the only option you had. Someone invented the car, and a better way was born (your match rationale).

However, if you are running a race, you are expected to develop your speed and skill and do the best job that you can. Jumping in a car and blowing everyone else away is cheating.

Drumming is recreational -- its a job for some, but it has become a job for them because they have developed their skills in a recreational environment. And as far as DMC's double kick pedal argument, i consider a double kick pedal akin to better shoes -- they dont do the work FOR YOU -- you still have to run just like you always did. The dualist would be like having shoes with little rockets on them... you take one step and then the rockets take another one for you. Its just not the same.




Uh-huh.......Yep........I see......... And in a race jumping in a car and blowing everyone away isn't cheating, it means that you have a better car, and are maybe a better driver. And as far as a horse or car argument, don't you think that the more technology advances people are going to adapt to it. I mean look at mp3's and tapes. All I am saying is the pedal sounds the same, your just pissed because someone beat you to it. If you were the guy that came up with this, you wouldn't be having this debate with anyone of us. Again, my opinion.

[morbius25]

My wife and I were talking about this. She said to me it seems to me that it takes a whole lot more skill and talent to play double pedals. It does, I can't do it. And I bet that a guy just like me said to himself I think I can come up with a way for the pedal to do the work. Think about the last time you sat at your kit both legs moving as fast as possible. You were tired, worn out, legs sore. Well to me this seems like this does the hard part for you.

Lets say you were at a show of a band that you liked. The drummer is really good at double bass. Later on you find out that he uses the Dualist, what do you do? Hate him cause he cheats, or keep on liking him because is smarter than you and lets science and technology work for him. You can set there and get all mad because people use this thing and think that its easier and that its the way it should be, or just except it and move on. You can also trash every analogy that is posted weather its the sticks and match thing, horse and car, or plane and boat. What it comes down to in my mind is what makes drumming easier for me. What is going to keep me from getting mad at my feet or my pedals because I can't use them like everyone else.

[Deathmetalconga]

i consider a double kick pedal akin to better shoes -- they dont do the work FOR YOU -- you still have to run just like you always did. The dualist would be like having shoes with little rockets on them... you take one step and then the rockets take another one for you. Its just not the same.

What is just not the same is your analogy. I don't use analogies much because they're like trying to trying to lasso the wind while taking a pee.

To find out of the Duallist really does any work for you, I once stared at it for an hour to see if it moved by itself. It stayed absolutely still. I inspected it carefully for batteries and motors, but I didn't even think of a rocket engine. I came to the conclusion it is made out of all the same components as a double or single pedal, just arranged so as to not waste any movement. But I'll take another look tonight to make sure it doesn't have any assistive technology, including a USB port or modem.

Sarcasm aside, you only get out of The Duallist what you put into it. It doesn't "do" anything for you. It just allows you to execute notes on the upstroke if you choose. You still have to move and control it. As an exercise, I once tied back the primary beater to see what it would be like making notes only on the upstroke. It was very hard at first, but as I got into it, it is really no harder or easier than making sound on the downstroke - just very, very different that what we are used to. In fact, the exercise of making a note on the upstroke is making me much more conscious of my single-foot technique. Far from a cheat, it's become a way to explore my technique with new exercises and it is improving my playing in all respects. In dual mode, each and every movement you make translates into sound and you must be mindful of everything you do.

If you have good right-foot bass pedal skills, The Duallist allows you to put them to work immediately. If you don't have good right-foot skills, you won't somehow magically sound better. And in single mode, where I spend 95 percent of my time, it makes a damn good single pedal. I suggest you actually try one for yourself before formulating an unchangeable opinion.

Of course, if you were really, really good, you could do everything you need on a single pedal and cheats like double pedals wouldn't even be necessary.

www.terrasonus.com

[Jeff Almeyda]

I use a double pedal and a Sonor Twin EFX pedal as well. I have some famliarity with this argument.

I've heard it from single pedal guys. "Bonzo could do it all one 1 kick". I guess drumming stopped progressing in 1980.

I've heard it from other double pedal guys "How did you get so good on double bass? Oh, you have the Axis pedals." I tell them to try them and see if the notes magically play themselves. Guess what? They don't.

I hear it about the Sonor Twin EfX "It's a gimmick"

People are entitled o their opinions, but I've noticed one thing: Working pros usually don't have time to bother arguing about trivialities like "cheating" pedals. The realities of daily gigging and studio work are such that you do what sounds and feels good. The word "cheating" never even comes into it. We are not being judged by a panel of formal technicians to see if our dismount was rock-solid. We are attempting to move people with our musical expression.

The type of drummer that invariably has had something to say to me is the one who has never played outside of his basement. Pros either like how you sound or they don't. Nothing else really matters. If you sound great then the pedal is cool. If not...

Of course, this is all my opinion. :)

[morbius25]

To find out of the Duallist really does any work for you, I once stared at it for an hour to see if it moved by itself. It stayed absolutely still. I inspected it carefully for batteries and motors, but I didn't even think of a rocket engine. I came to the conclusion it is made out of all the same components as a double or single pedal, just arranged so as to not waste any movement. But I'll take another look tonight to make sure it doesn't have any assistive technology, including a USB port or modem.

Sarcasm aside, you only get out of The Duallist what you put into it. It doesn't "do" anything for you. It just allows you to execute notes on the upstroke if you choose. You still have to move and control it. As an exercise, I once tied back the primary beater to see what it would be like making notes only on the upstroke. It was very hard at first, but as I got into it, it is really no harder or easier than making sound on the downstroke - just very, very different that what we are used to. In fact, the exercise of making a note on the upstroke is making me much more conscious of my single-foot technique. Far from a cheat, it's become a way to explore my technique with new exercises and it is improving my playing in all respects. In dual mode, each and every movement you make translates into sound and you must be mindful of everything you do.

If you have good right-foot bass pedal skills, The Duallist allows you to put them to work immediately. If you don't have good right-foot skills, you won't somehow magically sound better. And in single mode, where I spend 95 percent of my time, it makes a damn good single pedal. I suggest you actually try one for yourself before formulating an unchangeable opinion.

Of course, if you were really, really good, you could do everything you need on a single pedal and cheats like double pedals wouldn't even be necessary.

www.terrasonus.com

I wish you had been here today when I was trying to say that. I am just too stupid to put into those words. When I said it did the work for you, I meant what you said about the upstroke thing.

[Deathmetalconga]

I wish you had been here today when I was trying to say that. I am just too stupid to put into those words. When I said it did the work for you, I meant what you said about the upstroke thing.

Thanks.

Having an open mind like you do is more important than being able to use words well. There are plenty of closed-minded people who are good at writing.

Do you use a Duallist, or are you thinking about it? I'd like to start a thread where Duallist players exchange ideas, tips, etc.

One thing that gets overlooked is that it's just plain fun to play. I feel like it's awakened some dormant skill in my right foot that was just waiting to come out. If you have good right-foot skills, a Duallist will let you use them in amazing ways.

www.terrasonus.com

[morbius25]

Thanks.

Having an open mind like you do is more important than being able to use words well. There are plenty of closed-minded people who are good at writing.

Do you use a Duallist, or are you thinking about it? I'd like to start a thread where Duallist players exchange ideas, tips, etc.

One thing that gets overlooked is that it's just plain fun to play. I feel like it's awakened some dormant skill in my right foot that was just waiting to come out. If you have good right-foot skills, a Duallist will let you use them in amazing ways.

www.terrasonus.com

No I don't have one but I would like to just because I suck at double kicks. This thing just seems like its smarter to me. But yeah I would like to check one out before I bought one.

[Synthetik]

Thanks.

Having an open mind like you do is more important than being able to use words well. There are plenty of closed-minded people who are good at writing.

Do you use a Duallist, or are you thinking about it? I'd like to start a thread where Duallist players exchange ideas, tips, etc.

One thing that gets overlooked is that it's just plain fun to play. I feel like it's awakened some dormant skill in my right foot that was just waiting to come out. If you have good right-foot skills, a Duallist will let you use them in amazing ways.

www.terrasonus.com (http://www.terrasonus.com)

I was unsure at first, but I think I was hypnotized by the Mandelbrot fractal in your avatar. Must...try...duallist....don't...know...why....

[Deathmetalconga]

No I don't have one but I would like to just because I suck at double kicks. This thing just seems like its smarter to me. But yeah I would like to check one out before I bought one.

I gave double pedals a try and found them disorienting and clumsy. I knew I would have to train my left foot to learn an entirely new role and that it would take many hours of work - all to do something I don't need to do very often, and which robs me of hihat and foot percussion. I thought there must be something that would let me put my hard-earned right foot skills to use and take my right foot to the next level.

It was only after I got The Duallist that I heard about the Sonor Giant Step. I would like to try that also. While I am very satisfied with The Duallist, I'd suggest you look at the Giant Step just to see which suits your style better.

Let me know how it goes and we can trade Duallist tips someday maybe!

www.terrasonus.com

[syaoran05]

im sorry, but i have to disagree. The problem with this argument is one thing is born out of necessity and the other is recreational.

Let me explain it this way: In 1890, walking or taking your horse everywhere sucked, but thats the only option you had. Someone invented the car, and a better way was born (your match rationale).

However, if you are running a race, you are expected to develop your speed and skill and do the best job that you can. Jumping in a car and blowing everyone else away is cheating.

Drumming is recreational -- its a job for some, but it has become a job for them because they have developed their skills in a recreational environment. And as far as DMC's double kick pedal argument, i consider a double kick pedal akin to better shoes -- they dont do the work FOR YOU -- you still have to run just like you always did. The dualist would be like having shoes with little rockets on them... you take one step and then the rockets take another one for you. Its just not the same.


oh really... then let me see you do paradiddles on a duallist single pedal. i'll be waiting on youtube.

[Jeff Almeyda]

You make no sense. If someone is using a Dualist pedal AND a hi-hat at the same time then they obviously have control over both feet and some level of talent.

I play double bass but some of these recent posts are just silly. Who plays paradiddles on double-kick in a real-life band situation? I guarantee you that all of the kids (and a good portion of them are kids) posting on this thread only play single stroke rolls leading with the right foot under a right hand lead. The very kind of thing that the Duallist does very well.

Now, a Duallist is NOT a replacement for a double pedal but it is a tool that requires a technique to operate. You can either use it or not.

I don't care whether the author uses a pen or pencil or a word processor. I just want to read a good book. Get it?

[doublebass]

hey i notice people in this thread have started talking like pop music producers "i dont care how you do it it just needs to sound nice"....i dont think thats a mucisians way of thinking oh my god.Anyway that hihat-double beater combo souns like a good idea but saying thatt most kids are only doing single stroke rolls on db is no arguement

[Fat Elvis]

oh really... then let me see you do paradiddles on a duallist single pedal. i'll be waiting on youtube.

in order to do paradiddles on a dualist, i would:

A. need to own a dualist
B. See a point to doing paradiddles on a kick drum

have fun waiting.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

in order to do paradiddles on a dualist, i would:

A. need to own a dualist
B. See a point to doing paradiddles on a kick drum

have fun waiting.

Elvis... if only you were female and I were single...

The Duallist is just another tool. What's the big deal? I refer to the pen-pencil-word processor analogy.

[syaoran05]

I play double bass but some of these recent posts are just silly. Who plays paradiddles on double-kick in a real-life band situation? I guarantee you that all of the kids (and a good portion of them are kids) posting on this thread only play single stroke rolls leading with the right foot under a right hand lead. The very kind of thing that the Duallist does very well.

nobody does, in the context of performing. we take this in the context of technique. the point is to disprove that the duallist doesnt do the work for you. you can do paradiddles on a double bass, but a duallist cannot do the work of doing paradiddles for you. the duallist, just like the double bass [pedal] needs technique and, again, will not do the work for you.

Now, a Duallist is NOT a replacement for a double pedal but it is a tool that requires a technique to operate. You can either use it or not.

bulls eye dude.



in order to do paradiddles on a dualist, i would:

A. need to own a dualist
B. See a point to doing paradiddles on a kick drum

have fun waiting.

the point of doing paradiddles on the kick drum is to make your foot technique better. including the ability to be able to play other kinds of patterns like syncopates and such. if you dont know that, well, you need drum lessons.

now, the point of doing these kinds of exercises on a single pedal duallist is to help you do these patterns using the duallist. being able to use these rudiments on the duallist means that you have discipline and patience to use the duallist PROPERLY as a TOOL. it also means that you are not sacrificing your musicianship on the duallist, and you prove that YOU have total control over the duallist, and the duallist does NOT do the work for you.

i would be proud of a person who isnt imprisoned by the stereotypical use of the duallist.

[cwignall]

Drumming is about 1 of 2 (technically 3 things):

1: You are simply wanting to sound good and please an audience - cover bands maybe - most of them will be ignorant as to how the hell you can get such awesome bass lines from your drum, and just be in awe of the sound!

2: You do it for the love of drums. Purists who will master the kit "the hard way" ie: master the single pedal so that you can kick the ass off those who "cheat" with a double pedal. although the double pedal is a skill all on its own! (only once you have have mastered a single)

3: Me! A combination of both. For the audience benefit!: I want to please any audience i play to. so rather than spend years waiting for that, i may use a duallist and other gear/techniques that "cheat" compared to those who practice "the hard way"! But at the same time for MY own benefit and satisfaction i will practice like mad to learn the different pure techniques.

if i had to do a gig next week and a mettalica song had to be played, i cannot play double anywhere near that standard so i would use a duallist. but over time - years i will master the true double or even single technique needed to do the same - i wouldnt rest until i had!

another example is my friend drives a small 1400cc car - he has beaten Mercs, BMWs and other top cars from lights and on country lanes *note im not advocating dangerous driving here* but he does so because he has trained on braking/gear change/acceleration/cornering techniques far beyond the average driver. Id love to drive like that - but at the same time i wouldnt call it cheating if he is beaten by a £100,000 ferrari!

so i wouldnt rely on a duallist - there is no replacement for the personal satisfaction you get from hard work and practice. however i feel any cheats or short cuts have their place (apart from switches - anything that makes the sound for you is wrong! - at least the duallist you have to do some work :)

[Fat Elvis]

the point of doing paradiddles on the kick drum is to make your foot technique better. including the ability to be able to play other kinds of patterns like syncopates and such. if you dont know that, well, you need drum lessons.

i dont know of a drummer that doesn't need lessons. If you dont know that, then you need lessons.

[syaoran05]

i dont know of a drummer that doesn't need lessons. If you dont know that, then you need lessons.

i know that. but at least i know that there is a point in doing paradiddles on the bass drum.

[Fat Elvis]

i know that. but at least i know that there is a point in doing paradiddles on the bass drum.

Oooooh. Burn.

You take yourself way to seriously. If paradiddles are so important on a kick drum, then why would ANYONE EVER use a dualist exclusively instead of a double pedal?

Maybe they need lessons.... from a dualist teacher. Wait, there are none of those -- any teacher that breaks one out would not be able to hear themself playing above the roar of laughter.

Boy, do you need lessons.

[tamadrummer132]

ok kids, stop fighting.

this is what i have to say.

musicians, are not trying to prove anything to anyone.
they play music becuase they enjoy it, and i know full well, that when i play drums sometimes... im the ,sometimes, the only one enjoying it.

if someone wants to use a dualist to make their music the way they want it, then let it be.

personally i hate computerized drumming, but there are some people that enjoy it, and im sure they hate things that i love.

so people, using a dualist is a choice about what the person wants, whether they should be considered a pathetic drummer is not up to you.

[drummerchick435]

I see the dualist is helpful in one situation. Lets say you want to hit your closed hi hat but you also want a double pedal sound. you can't take your foot off the hi hat pedal or else your hi hat would open. Thats when the dualist comes in handy. you just switch the dualist over to double pedal mode and there you go.
Other than that I don't think its very good.

[syaoran05]

Oooooh. Burn.

You take yourself way to seriously. If paradiddles are so important on a kick drum, then why would ANYONE EVER use a dualist exclusively instead of a double pedal?

Maybe they need lessons.... from a dualist teacher. Wait, there are none of those -- any teacher that breaks one out would not be able to hear themself playing above the roar of laughter.

Boy, do you need lessons.

youre not being constructive. your objective is to just diss the duallist and duallist users and supporters and not have proper proof of your stand.

again, paradiddles have nothing to do with using the duallist exclusively.

the paradiddle issue is just to show that THE DUALLIST DOES NOT DO THE WORK FOR YOU.

now, your question :If paradiddles are so important on a kick drum, then why would ANYONE EVER use a dualist exclusively instead of a double pedal? "

it doesnt make sense. it doesnt even connect. no one told you that the duallist was "exclusively used for doing paradiddles"

now if i take the first part of your question away, it will look like this: why would ANYONE EVER use a dualist exclusively instead of a double pedal?

the answer is simply because they can and/or they want to and/or need to. again. THE DUALLIST IS A TOOL. these people who choose to use the duallist exclusively over a double pedal have their reasons. they can see that there are things that the duallist can do that ordinary double pedals cant do. like the examples i said, high left foot clave and hi hat functionality while retaining double bass patterns.

now, on your reply i want counterexamples and not just simple reasons or reasons without basis. and quit dissing the duallist and duallist users/supporters, coz it doesnt prove anything except that youre a wussy, and is unwelcome to the debate nature of this thread.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Check this guy out and tell HIM that he's cheating with a Dualist.

www.edrums.gr

I believe that prior conceptions of what the feet are capable of are falling by the wayside. The role of the feet in contemporary drumset playing is being redfined right now and it's going to include double pedals, Dualists or Giant Steps, remote hi-hats, electronics and anything else on the horizon.

There will always be a challenge to perform at the highest level, regardless of which pedal you choose to use.

[syaoran05]

There will always be a challenge to perform at the highest level, regardless of which pedal you choose to use.

well said dude.

20 chars

[nbarer]

I don't get this attitude. If it makes the same sound, why do you get so aggro about it because you choose to take the harder approach? I wouldn't use either, because I really can't see a use for faster bass drum stuff than I can learn with a single pedal. But if you're keen on that "lots of kick" sound, why not use a pedal if it gives the same result for less effort?

I mean, if you've got a valid complaint like "The second stroke always sounds too quiet" or "It limits your ability to play any line you like because it insists on playing lots of strokes every time you move your foot" or something then great, but just saying "Oh, that's the lazy approach" is pretty odd. This is music, not WFD - if you can get the same sonic results in a lazier way then I'm all for it, because it gives you more time to worry about music and co-ordination and less time wasted on working on blazing double kick, no?

That is, unless you're just playing double-kick as part of some kind of competition to see who has the fastest feet, but you people keep assuring me that it actually has a musical purpose...


i agree with you.....................

[nbarer]

I don't get this attitude. If it makes the same sound, why do you get so aggro about it because you choose to take the harder approach? I wouldn't use either, because I really can't see a use for faster bass drum stuff than I can learn with a single pedal. But if you're keen on that "lots of kick" sound, why not use a pedal if it gives the same result for less effort?

I mean, if you've got a valid complaint like "The second stroke always sounds too quiet" or "It limits your ability to play any line you like because it insists on playing lots of strokes every time you move your foot" or something then great, but just saying "Oh, that's the lazy approach" is pretty odd. This is music, not WFD - if you can get the same sonic results in a lazier way then I'm all for it, because it gives you more time to worry about music and co-ordination and less time wasted on working on blazing double kick, no?

That is, unless you're just playing double-kick as part of some kind of competition to see who has the fastest feet, but you people keep assuring me that it actually has a musical purpose...

i agree with you completly. I would never use a double pedal or a dualist but if i wanted to get into that stuff, i would look at the dualist/ giant step. I agree that it isnt WFD, and too many people are caught up in who can play faster.

[syaoran05]

i agree with you.....................

i agree with that, but let's remember that there are also people who are critical to technique. and it is true that playing double bass requires a lot of training and hard work and proper technique. but then if there's a tool that will help you do more [please take note: to do more is not necessarily the same as making it easier ] then its not bad to use that tool. besides, the concept of technique isnt lost in using a duallist. a duallist isnt an automatic machine.

[Joe P]

Well my opinion is that it's completely fine----I mean, if you're competing in say, a drumoff then yes, it is cheating. But if you're using it to make sweet, sweet music with your Dualist, then more power to ya!

I mean, can you imagine!...2 Bass drums, both with a dualist on it :P
That, my friend, would be cool! :P

[Fat Elvis]

well, i must say, i have a different perspective on this. After playing a year and a half with a rock band that wanted me to play double, i think i am open to the dualist. You see, our song writer and guitarist wanted strong doubles here but also requested a lot of control over the dynamic of the hi hat. The dualist is really the only logical answer.

Im not with that band any more, but should i find myself in a similar situation, i think i would give it a shot.

[Mendozart]

Fat Elvis,
See, now you're looking at it as another tool to get the job done. You started another job that required some different tools. I don't like to think of playing music as a job, but why not take advantage of all the tools that are out there, to make the music you love.

[Deathmetalconga]

well, i must say, i have a different perspective on this. After playing a year and a half with a rock band that wanted me to play double, i think i am open to the dualist. You see, our song writer and guitarist wanted strong doubles here but also requested a lot of control over the dynamic of the hi hat. The dualist is really the only logical answer.

Im not with that band any more, but should i find myself in a similar situation, i think i would give it a shot.

It would definitely work for that. Plus, it's just a lot of fun to play. If you have good right foot skills, it will unlock all sorts of abilities you didn't know you had.

[Fat Elvis]

It would definitely work for that. Plus, it's just a lot of fun to play. If you have good right foot skills, it will unlock all sorts of abilities you didn't know you had.

Yeah, my skills on my right foot are pretty good. I think I may pick one of these up and try it for myself.

[spartacus1989]

I'd definatly debate that the dualist is cheating but fun.

[Deathmetalconga]

I'd definatly debate that the dualist is cheating but fun.

I'll definitely debate that double pedals are cheating but not fun.

[Tutin]

Heh, My Aunt is friends with the guy who invented these. Funnily enough it was my drum teacher who gave the idea to his business partner! Weird that, seeing as they live in different countries!

[Victor_se]

i'm sure you can achieve really Great and cool things with the double or the triple pdal but im still prefering an iron cobra or something more " usual " to play

[drovja]

I've never played a Dualist, so I don't have an opinion either way. But after reading this, I've got a technical question. What kind of technique changes are necessary for a player that uses a traditional pedal to use the Dualist effectively? I'm not talking about straight doubles, that's obvious, but as far as more intricate bass lines, is it difficult to use?

[Deathmetalconga]

I've never played a Dualist, so I don't have an opinion either way. But after reading this, I've got a technical question. What kind of technique changes are necessary for a player that uses a traditional pedal to use the Dualist effectively? I'm not talking about straight doubles, that's obvious, but as far as more intricate bass lines, is it difficult to use?

Yes, it does require some technique. Mainly, you have to carefully control your right foot to manage the distance between the beaters and the drum head. It's easy to get The Duallist to play lots of notes - getting it to not play when you want is the harder part. The good news is that if you have good right-foot skills, you will be able to pick this up with practice.

[fijjibo]

I'll definitely debate that double pedals are cheating but not fun.

Harsh man....

I dont think double pedals are cheating, as they just enable you to play the bass drum with more than the one limb - which must be a good thing.

Now, dont get me wrong - using a double pedal to compenate for a lazy foot IS cheating.

But if your like me, and use the slave side of a twin pedal to play the bass drum with my left foor while my right foot plays a tambourine and clave block - Is THAT cheating???

I just think its another neat little think to do on the kit.

(Btw, nothing personal DMC, I just wanted to bring this point up)

:-)

[Ozzy Biz]

This has to be the longest and most repeating thread to ever grace the internet, and not in a good way.

[spartacus1989]

The Dualist is a device which needs no real technique to be able to play it. Just lift your foot up and down, and well done, you have got a beat! But seriously, with double pedals, it is all about athletic technique to be able to play fast. Also on double pedal you are able to make beats that are not as easy to make on the dualist!

[Deathmetalconga]

The Dualist is a device which needs no real technique to be able to play it. Just lift your foot up and down, and well done, you have got a beat! But seriously, with double pedals, it is all about athletic technique to be able to play fast. Also on double pedal you are able to make beats that are not as easy to make on the dualist!

And you know this because you have actually played a Duallist, right?

Unless you have played one, your ability to credibly comment on its technique will be very limited. It is not harder than a double pedal or easier, just very different. It is much more like a single pedal than a double pedal, yet everyone keeps wanting to compare it to a double pedal.

[Ironcobra]

And you know this because you have actually played a Duallist, right?

Unless you have played one, your ability to credibly comment on its technique will be very limited. It is not harder than a double pedal or easier, just very different. It is much more like a single pedal than a double pedal, yet everyone keeps wanting to compare it to a double pedal.

Well put. It's very different from a double bass. Even harder I would say. But to say it takes no skill to play is just an ignorant comment from a 4th grader

[Gilded]

What if you had two dualist pedals on two seperate bass drums and used quad pedal method on them?

[aydee]

What if you had two dualist pedals on two seperate bass drums and used quad pedal method on them?

That would sound like a wolf howling at the moon.

.......all night.........!

[chopsy]

and the metal you created would be blacker than the blackest black times infinity

could someone who uses one make some comments on how you control the force of the upstroke?

[Deathmetalconga]

and the metal you created would be blacker than the blackest black times infinity

could someone who uses one make some comments on how you control the force of the upstroke?

I have played a Duallist for about a year and a half.

To control the force of the secondary beater, you very carefully control how fast your foot moves upward. The faster your foot moves upward, the harder the secondary beater hits. In a standard single pedal, you really don't need to pay much attention to how your foot moves upward. In the Duallist, you are producing notes on the downstroke and the upstroke when you are in dual mode, so you have to control the movement of your foot very carefully. In single mode, it works just like a single pedal.

[Dystisis]

The Dualist is a device which needs no real technique to be able to play it. Just lift your foot up and down, and well done, you have got a beat! But seriously, with double pedals, it is all about athletic technique to be able to play fast. Also on double pedal you are able to make beats that are not as easy to make on the dualist!

Drumming is about music, it's not a sport. It's not a competition.

[romenydrummer64]

I originally posted this in the duallist triple pedal forum when I actually intended for it to be posted here...but my thoughts haven't changed since then, so I will repost it here...and I will add a few more comments....I haven't tried the duallist yet...and I view it as an exciting new tool...I look forward to learning how to use it. As with all drumming...it will require that one tangible that makes us all better drummers...practice....and so here is my original post.

I do not have a DUALLIST pedal yet...but I plan to get one in a few weeks. I have read the forums and reviews, and I understand that there are different beliefs. Having said that, I have to ask a few questions.

A) Isn't music all about creativity? Look at the famous WAH Pedals and Distortion Pedals for guitarists...cheating or creativity? How about the electric guitar itself...how many acoustic guitarists viewed the electric as cheating?

B) I have played double bass, and I can't say that I ever enjoyed trying to get to the next level so much as I enjoyed making new sound..it's not like playing a video game. In all these forums that's the impression I get from the good folks who want to keep double bass drumming traditional...which is fine...for those who choose that path...we hear, "...but what about all the years I spent practicing?" I'm sorry, but to me that's akin to saying something like, "Hey I spent all those years riding a bicycle and now all these guys driving cars are getting there faster!" Technology, like it or not, is part of the human experience, and so is music.

My theory is this....it's not a matter of how the journey is made so much as it is just enjoying the journey...and that applies to the bicycle...the car...double bass, and yes...duallist. So let's all just enjoy the journey, and instead of beating each other up, how about passing on tips that will help us all? As for me, I'm gonna try a duallist, and if somebody says "how did you do that?" I will proudly point to the pedal and tell them the same thing that applies to all bass drumming regardless of hardware setup...."practice"

[JoeAdkins]

I HAVE ONE READ THIS

check my discussion its not cheating its useing your brain is is cheating to use a bike insted of walking no plus i have the triple pedal. i am talking from someone who spent 7 years mastering double pedals to then tryout the triple. i would NOT recommend anything but that pedal. its rely god as a singal pedal stadard double pedal a duallist double on one foot which alows u to do hi hat work and the triple is good for fills and endings to songs. its won awoards been congratulated by the queen and tony blair won countless awords in the music, drumming world and other awoards

trust me its not cheat ing cus u are doing the work the only way it would be cheating is if u wernt doing anything.

give it ago it exspands your playing and all the stuff u spend hours learning on a double u can still do. u push down a trigger it terns into a regular double pedal. the pic of the one with five beeters is a fake the most they do is 3.

[romenydrummer64]

WOW!!! That's all I can say!! My Duallist arrived today and I love it!! First of all, since I already have a nice set of PDP double pedals, I still can use my LEFT foot skills on the hat for some really intricate and just downright cool grooves!! Since the Duallist is normally shipped from the factory pre-set for optimum performance, all I had to do was attach the beaters and my new Gibralter double click pad that I've been saving just for this pedal. Because I knew already from these posts that I would need to basically re-train my RIGHT foot to adapt to the dual action, I only had to make a couple of very minor adjustments and then I was off and playing!! After a very short 15-20 minutes, I was getting some killer grooves. If there is anything wrong that I can see, it is that I am having trouble teaching my RIGHT foot to slow down. This may not be the "Ferrari" of drum pedals, but it squeezes out every ounce of mechanical engineering possible to create the ultimate double bass experience!! I look forward to learning more and expanding my capabilities. Who says ya can't teach old dogs new tricks? My only regret thus far is that I didn't get this pedal before now!! WOW!!

[Deathmetalconga]

WOW!!! That's all I can say!! My Duallist arrived today and I love it!! First of all, since I already have a nice set of PDP double pedals, I still can use my LEFT foot skills on the hat for some really intricate and just downright cool grooves!! Since the Duallist is normally shipped from the factory pre-set for optimum performance, all I had to do was attach the beaters and my new Gibralter double click pad that I've been saving just for this pedal. Because I knew already from these posts that I would need to basically re-train my RIGHT foot to adapt to the dual action, I only had to make a couple of very minor adjustments and then I was off and playing!! After a very short 15-20 minutes, I was getting some killer grooves. If there is anything wrong that I can see, it is that I am having trouble teaching my RIGHT foot to slow down. This may not be the "Ferrari" of drum pedals, but it squeezes out every ounce of mechanical engineering possible to create the ultimate double bass experience!! I look forward to learning more and expanding my capabilities. Who says ya can't teach old dogs new tricks? My only regret thus far is that I didn't get this pedal before now!! WOW!!

Welcome to the club! I've been playing my Duallist for almost two years. It will change the way you approach your kit and it's just plain FUN to play. I think the actual joy of playing often gets squeezed out of practice (solo or group) and the Duallist restores a lot of that. I can rip out perfect 240 bpm notes with my right foot and my left foot is free to play hats and foot percussion.

It's easy to get 16ths and shuffles right away if you have a good right foot. Playing odd-numbered bass drum figures takes a lot more practice and foot control, but it will come along like anything else.

[Fett2oo5]

Im curious what you would do when you play two songs of different tempos back to back.
What if you want to play 16ths to a song at a tempo of 110bpm. Then you want to play 16ths to the very next song but it's tempo is at say 90.

The actual BPM # of the song is not important what Im asking is what happens when you play two songs of different Tempos and want to play 16ths at some point in each of those songs.

[Mr. Pasquini]

DMC, Are you full out against double pedals? You just seem to have a negative outlook on them. I think the dualist is a great invention and I've played one but I personally enjoy having a second pedal. I understand the advantages of the dualist and I agree, it could make playing easier but for dynamic changes and for complicated foot patterns I like the challenge and control of two pedals.

[Deathmetalconga]

Im curious what you would do when you play two songs of different tempos back to back.
What if you want to play 16ths to a song at a tempo of 110bpm. Then you want to play 16ths to the very next song but it's tempo is at say 90.

The actual BPM # of the song is not important what Im asking is what happens when you play two songs of different Tempos and want to play 16ths at some point in each of those songs.

Playing at different tempos with a Duallist is the same as with any other pedal. It all boils down to control. You can instantly go from single to dual mode by stepping on levers with your heel.

[Deathmetalconga]

DMC, Are you full out against double pedals? You just seem to have a negative outlook on them. I think the dualist is a great invention and I've played one but I personally enjoy having a second pedal. I understand the advantages of the dualist and I agree, it could make playing easier but for dynamic changes and for complicated foot patterns I like the challenge and control of two pedals.

I have no problem with double pedals as such. I've tried them and found them disorienting. Given the amount of time that it would take to train my left foot, and given that I have good right-foot skills, and given that I don't need dual-beater capability very often, and given that I have been training my left foot to play percussion, it seemed like a better use of my time and talent to go with the Duallist.

For versatility and control, a skilled double pedal player will be able to smoke your average Duallist player, strictly in terms of viewing it as a competition. But the double pedal player will have invested many, many hours in training his left foot, all for a skill that is not needed very often. Given the time cost/benefit balance, a Duallist was a good choice for me. I think it would be a good choice for many, many people who have a double pedal setup and don't play it very well, but have good right foot skills.

[Mr. Pasquini]

I
For versatility and control, a skilled double pedal player will be able to smoke your average Duallist player, strictly in terms of viewing it as a competition. But the double pedal player will have invested many, many hours in training his left foot, all for a skill that is not needed very often. Given the time cost/benefit balance, a Duallist was a good choice for me. I think it would be a good choice for many, many people who have a double pedal setup and don't play it very well, but have good right foot skills.

I see where you're coming from. Seeing as you don't play metal and don't rely on constant double bass you have no reason to waste your time with a skill that ultimately won't come in handy. You realize there are people who use doubles enough to really require the double pedal over the dualist. I feel like I do some things with my double pedal that I just wouldn't be able to do with a dualist... not necessarily speed wise (I'm not particularly fast), but more sound and technique wise. I'm not insisting it's a competition, just that double pedals may work better for certain things over the dualist. I will say it is a "necessary" skill of you're playing a style of music which is complimented by double bass.

I do like your left foot percussion, you've got a ton going on! I'd love to hear some of your playing. Do you have any clips recorded, or will you be recording anything soon?

[Guillermo]

Well, I HAVE a Duallist since 2002... paid handsomely for it (360 US$ at the time I believe, plus tax, plus around 45 US$ for shipping here).

I have used it about 18 minutes since then...

It's a great tool, for many reasons stated... I for one think the design should be SIMPLIFIED... it's got so many adjustements... it's like one of those HUGE graphic EQs of the 80's... lots of combinations that are not quite right... yet my DW had maybe 3 or 4 and it was basicly PERFECT and untouched for almost 8 years... to me THAT'S design.

As for those who feel it's cheating... I totally disagree... then what playing Electric guitar is cheating?... or using a reverb pedal?... heck even the drumset, I'm sure percussion line drummers from the late 19th century considered playing with your feet and hands at the same time, cheating at one point.

[romenydrummer64]

Okay, it's been a few weeks since I got my Duallist and I do love playing it....but I am having a bit of a problem, and if anyone would like to offer some helpful technical advice, I'd greatly appreciate it. Here it is...I play on a Ludwig 16X22 Bass that has a Remo Pinstripe head on it, with a Gibralter double click pad. I have tried using all 4 sides of the duallist beaters, and I seem to do well with the felt sides and the plastics sides, but the felts negate the click pad, and the plastics bounce too much...if I remove the click pad I risk ruining the head, and it's a new head. I like the sound of the heads so I don't want to change bass heads yet if I don't have to. How do I reduce the amount of bounce on the plastic beaters?

[Deathmetalconga]

Okay, it's been a few weeks since I got my Duallist and I do love playing it....but I am having a bit of a problem, and if anyone would like to offer some helpful technical advice, I'd greatly appreciate it. Here it is...I play on a Ludwig 16X22 Bass that has a Remo Pinstripe head on it, with a Gibralter double click pad. I have tried using all 4 sides of the duallist beaters, and I seem to do well with the felt sides and the plastics sides, but the felts negate the click pad, and the plastics bounce too much...if I remove the click pad I risk ruining the head, and it's a new head. I like the sound of the heads so I don't want to change bass heads yet if I don't have to. How do I reduce the amount of bounce on the plastic beaters?

This is a general bass drum question. When you say the felts negate the click pad (don't you mean "kick pad"?), what do you mean? Is there not enough bounce when you use the felt side? And too much bounce when you use the plastic side?

Try using the plastic side and stick a bit of fuzzy velcro on to the kick pad. That will absorb some of the impact of the beater, resulting in less bounce. But you will have to replace the velcro every now and then as the plastic beater will push it flat.

How tight is your bass drum head? A tighter head will cause more rebound.

I use superballs for beaters. They give a fat sound and have very controlled action - just the right amount of bounce. You'd think they'd rebound like crazy but that's only on a hard surface. On a giving surface, they dissipate energy by deforming their shape, much like felt, but with a bit more definition.

[romenydrummer64]

When I play with the felt side of the beaters they don't rebound enough on the Gibralter Click Pad, (so named because the pad supplies a "click" sound when struck by the beaters, thus adding more attack to the tone of the bass drum) and the plastic side of the beaters rebound too much. I recently tightened my bass drum head on all the lugs by a quarter turn on each. I did that to try and gain some rebound from the felt beaters, but it didn't work. I seem to be stuck on a very thin line between not enough rebound and too much rebound. I was thinking that maybe it was my spring settings on the Duallist that may have a "breaking in" issue. I ordered my pedal through musician's friend.com and there was no DVD included as the Duallist website and reviews claim, so as far as adjustments are concerned, I am really in the dark. I was just wondering if this is a spring or beater issue. Where do I get "super ball" beaters, and who makes them? Any info would be appreciated. My brother-in-law also plays drums and he advised me to use the old napkin/duct tape application over the click pad, and I have never heard of the velcro solution, but at this point anything is worth a try. Thanks again for any input or ideas you may have.

[Deathmetalconga]

When I play with the felt side of the beaters they don't rebound enough on the Gibralter Click Pad, (so named because the pad supplies a "click" sound when struck by the beaters, thus adding more attack to the tone of the bass drum) and the plastic side of the beaters rebound too much. I recently tightened my bass drum head on all the lugs by a quarter turn on each. I did that to try and gain some rebound from the felt beaters, but it didn't work. I seem to be stuck on a very thin line between not enough rebound and too much rebound. I was thinking that maybe it was my spring settings on the Duallist that may have a "breaking in" issue. I ordered my pedal through musician's friend.com and there was no DVD included as the Duallist website and reviews claim, so as far as adjustments are concerned, I am really in the dark. I was just wondering if this is a spring or beater issue. Where do I get "super ball" beaters, and who makes them? Any info would be appreciated. My brother-in-law also plays drums and he advised me to use the old napkin/duct tape application over the click pad, and I have never heard of the velcro solution, but at this point anything is worth a try. Thanks again for any input or ideas you may have.

I've seen superball beaters out there somewhere, but I don't recall where. I just make my own. I remove the beater from an existing shaft, roughen the first inch and a half with a grinder, then drill a hole in a large superball to within a quarter-inch of the other side (use a 9/32 drill bit, just a hair smaller diameter than the shaft). I put a bit of glue in the hole and stick the ball onto the shaft. So far, I haven't had any failures but I know superball rubber is fairly brittle and I suspect one of them may split open someday, although I am not a hard player. I put a square of fuzzy velcro on one side of the superball so I can turn it for a slightly softer sound.

Adjusting the feel like this is a personalized thing and you may have to experiment with several different materials before you find the right one. I'd put a square of velcro on your click pad and if you need more padding, you can make a small square of velcro that is scratchy on one side and fuzzy on the other and stick that on the velcro that is on the click pad. Maybe put the fuzzy velcro on one of the hard plastic sides of the Duallist beater and try different combinations.

[jesusfetusis6]

i'd rather practice 5000 hours to get to those speeds, than buying this pedal....

i don't think it's a bad product but i think if you start cutting corners instead of building up your skill you'll start cutting corners elsewhere and you won't get as good as you would if you actually practiced. the only time i would consider using it is if i was playing, percussion, not a drumset, but like bongos, congas, etc. and i wanted a bass drum to go along with it. i doubt that would ever happen though.

edit: i also don't think it's "cheating" necessarily, but i think having the skill to use a regular double-pedal is more important. and if you've already got the skill, then why not go and buy it if you want it?

[Deathmetalconga]

i don't think it's a bad product but i think if you start cutting corners instead of building up your skill you'll start cutting corners elsewhere and you won't get as good as you would if you actually practiced. the only time i would consider using it is if i was playing, percussion, not a drumset, but like bongos, congas, etc. and i wanted a bass drum to go along with it. i doubt that would ever happen though.

edit: i also don't think it's "cheating" necessarily, but i think having the skill to use a regular double-pedal is more important. and if you've already got the skill, then why not go and buy it if you want it?

Funny, because if I look at all the time I'd have to put into playing double pedals (which don't get used very often in most music), that's time that I could be using to improve my skills in other ways. For example, incorporating left-foot percussion.

Anyone who has worked to attain good right-foot skills can play double pedal with their right foot. They just need the right piece of equipment to unlock the skills, like the Duallist.

[erneye]

Hi, I have a triple Duallist, had it for about 3 months now and am having trouble getting the slave to 'feel' the same as the main pedal.I think there is more resistance on the main unit due to the extra belt for the second beater, but could be wrong. The main pedal just seems a lot faster.

I bought the pedal cheap second hand and haven't got the set-up dvd and find the adjustment possibilities bewildering. Any advice would be gratefully received.

I returned to drumming earlier in the year after a 20 year absence and mainly use the pedal to learn to play conventional double pedal. Once I am more accomplished playing double pedal I do intend to learn to use the extra beater.

I read all the the forums about cheating before I bought it and understand why some are upset that it appears others are achieving speeds they have earned by many years of practice. But as a newcomer to both double pedal and the duallist, it seems to me that you require a fair amount of skill to get a consistant speed and volume which ever you use.

[mattieb298]

god! I hate that pedal... if you want to cheat... that's ok, but this one is not for me, i'd rather practice 5000 hours to get to those speeds, than buying this pedal....

I agree with this guy!
I feel it takes the fun out of learning and practicing with a real double pedal
And if you wanted to do triplets on that dualist triple beater thing, you'd just have to hit both pedals to get the double on the right and single on the left...
Now i feel thats cheating!!!

[aydee]

I agree with this guy!
I feel it takes the fun out of learning and practicing with a real double pedal
And if you wanted to do triplets on that dualist triple beater thing, you'd just have to hit both pedals to get the double on the right and single on the left...
Now i feel thats cheating!!!

Why is that cheating? If you wear shoelaces, and someone else wears Velcro, is that cheating?

[swing_set]

I actually find this thread rather entertaining.

But the dualist, i don't really care. Music is all about self expression and doing things the way you would like. Sometimes music goes against conventional ways. I personally belive in single pedals and laying my sticks and brushes on my bass drum, but some guys like the dualist and having pro-mark stick holders all over their set.

I am bassically saying...
WHO CARES if you use a dualist and you love it or hate it, because in the end, it all comes down to playing the music YOUR way and not how SOMEONE ELSE thinks it should be played.