Derrick Pope: Moeller - One Handed Roll - Heel Toe - DrumSet

[djp132]

Me explaining and demonstrating the moeller technique. Give it a watch and let me know what you think. Its a home DIY job so the quality isnt dvd. Feedback is always welcome

www.derrickpope.net/moellertechnique.wmv

Derrick Pope
djp132@gmail.com

[djp132]

Me explaining and demonstrating the moeller technique. Give it a watch and let me know what you think. Its a home DIY job so the quality isnt dvd. Feedback is always welcome

www.derrickpope.net/moellertechnique.wmv

Derrick Pope
djp132@gmail.com

[chris--byrne]

great vid !! It makes the moeller technique really clear you should get in touch with Hudson !!

-Chris

[averypoordrummer]

thank you very much.

i didn't have a clue about the moeller technique before watching your excellent video, really really helpful.


thanks again

[Raymond Bloom]

Really nice video, thx bro ;-)

I learned some nice things from that, I have executed Moeller technique with my left hand (trad grip) pretty good, but my right hand can't keep up with the left, weird, i'm not a lefty hehe

[aarbo]

Hey thanks! I just watched it all through.
You are VERY good at explaining things to students who don't know anything about it.
Your video is even better than the videos by Dom Famularo. His extreme happiness while explaining can bother the learning process ;)
So are you going to make some more videos like this? Is there any network of drummers who give high quality cyberlessons yet apart from sponsors? Start one on drummerworld.com!

What your video told me: Moeller is eeeeasy, haha thanks again...

[LimaBeans]

Awesome video, kudos.

[mandion]

Yeah, nicely done. You have a natural teaching style that is interesting and easy to understand.

[y0avz]

Hey Great vid, after watching this one, the moeller seems to be very simple right now.
thanks... Show us some more vid's will ya?

[pete_on_drums]

hey
greaaat vid!
ive been lookin on other threads ,about how 2 do the moeller, and i couldnt really get it , by reading about it, i needed a video!
that was so easy to understand.
maybe you could do another vid , showin the moeller around the kit , on that nice lookin elecric kit youve got ther
thanx

[skippy]

ive seen many videos on the moller even by jeff queen jim chapin dom famularo. but this is by far the best most in depth video i have seen. great work dude. now i get it. thank you very much.

[NUTHA JASON]

you are a great teacher. a great addition to the forum. thanks bro.
i think this video deserves a permanent place on the DW tutorial section.
j

[Jookbox]

Really nice video, thx bro ;-)

I learned some nice things from that, I have executed Moeller technique with my left hand (trad grip) pretty good, but my right hand can't keep up with the left, weird, i'm not a lefty hehe

i actually had the same problem for a while. i'm also right handed.

[tambian89]

This video is great! Likin' the Coors Light shirt too.

- Marc

[gr82bagn]

Great stuff, thanks.

[ryan]

I thought the Coors Light shirt was a nice touch too. You definitely have an affinity for teaching.

[Bonham to the moon]

very very professional. How long have you been teaching?

[djp132]

Thank you all for the very positive and encouraging feedback. I wasn't sure how well this video would go over but I'm thrilled to see that many are enjoying it and learning a bit. I will definitely do more vids. I'm working on one now that will demonstrate the double strokes on the bass drum using different techniques, and one with more exotic hand techniques like the freehand, the jojo meyer open close, the buddy rich open close, etc. Any suggestions are more than welcome, and thank you all again!

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[Raymond Bloom]

I'm working on one now that will demonstrate the double strokes on the bass drum using different techniques, and one with more exotic hand techniques like the freehand, the jojo meyer open close, the buddy rich open close, etc. Any suggestions are more than welcome, and thank you all again!

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com
I will deffinetely want to see them ;-)

Thank you for the time and effort you're spending, every little thing that one can learn something means a lot!

[Class A Drummer]

Great vid man. just yestarday i started trying to learn it, and i was using threads and posts to help. they did but they cud not explain it thouroughly through writing. Now after being showed and having it explained well i can learn it much better.

[tracer]

My suggestion is that you finish,and sell a compilation copy on dvd .I will buy one.
tracer

[Class A Drummer]

Hey i saw u doing extremly fast 16th notes with one hand or a one handed role... will put i vid of how to do that up also?

[AvengedDrummer]

Nice Video! that was the best explanation of the moeller technique ive seen.

[drumz4eva]

My suggestion is that you finish,and sell a compilation copy on dvd .I will buy one.
tracer
yeah, u probally make alot,

that video was even more clean than steve smith's history of the u.s bete and drum technique video, when he explained the moeller

i giv u props

[Bonzo91]

Great video I like the way you explained everything very nice.

[Steady Freddy]

That was really out standing!!!. Please keep the good work!!!

[Drumming4anything]

2 Words: THANK YOU!! I've been looking everywhere for something that explains the moeller technique properly and thoroughly, and you did it. Again, thanks.

[Samf]

Outstanding Job on this video. No ego just a very open sharing of your technique. No right or wrong but, what works for you. Once again great job. Seems everyone else always holds back some little part of it that hinders progress. You FINALLY but all the parts on the table and thank you very much.

I would imagine you could do this matched grip and use doubles, triples, 4 strokes because it's all a matter of controlling the rebound with the number of strokes you want?

[millerdakiller]

I really wasn't aware that the moller technique was taboo. do you own a dictionary?

[djp132]

Websters Universal College Dictionary - TABOO - "the system or practice of setting things apart as sacred or forbidden for general use."

In my experience it seems that the Moeller technique was always this seemingly "magical" technique that the pros used to achieve some of their amazing speed, control and accuracy. However, it was quite difficult for normal students or drummers to find material to learn and properly use the technique. I highly doubt it was a matter of those pros keeping it a secret but nonetheless the amount of material available on the moeller technique was virtually nothing. This is how i meant the word to be used.

I do understand why you posed your question, and youre right, maybe i should have used a better word. The video was done in one take only so just about everything that was said was improvised on the spot. Also, in the larger scheme of things I dont think one word is more important than the video and technique as a whole.

I do appreciate your comment, and in future videos I will be a bit more aware of my vocabulary selection.

Once again, THANK YOU to everyone for the forum posts and emails. It's a great feeling to do something that educates and gives enjoyment to those who watch it. And remember, REBOUND!!!

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[RythmPoint]

Bro you honestly just made my day... :D awsome vid and yeah you should definetly do like a dvd and sell it or somenthing, i'd buy it for sure... keep em coming!!! thanx a bunch man.

[Soffer]

Wow! Very well done and most appreciated!
I for one am waiting for your next posts.
I have been practicing Moeller fron Famulero's book but your vid makes it much clearer.
How long did it take to get there? I know it's a very simplistic question, but -
but I will ask because working without an instructor can make you sometimes ask yourself "am I working in the right manner or am I just excercising for over a month doing the wrong thing...?"
How long before one should expect to "get it"? - If one is doing it right?


Thanks again
: - )

[djp132]

once again, i cant thank everyone enough for the kind words.

thank you thank you.

watch the vid and do the moeller!

Derrick

[Auger]

Hey cool video -very well made!


In my experience it seems that the Moeller technique was always this seemingly "magical" technique that the pros used to achieve some of their amazing speed, control and accuracy. However, it was quite difficult for normal students or drummers to find material to learn and properly use the technique. I highly doubt it was a matter of those pros keeping it a secret but nonetheless the amount of material available on the moeller technique was virtually nothing.

Yeah, I think the reason for that is because the nature of Moeller technique is that it really requires a teacher -or, at the very least, a demonstration. You can spend all day reading stuff about 'down - tap -up' and 'whipping motion' and not really get it until you see a clear demonstration -and not like someone applying it in a playing situation, like watching a video of JoJo Mayer tearing up a drumset, but a clear, to the point demonstration of the actual motion and the idea behind it like you provided. Ironically, as you pointed out it's a really simple concept, but it's very difficult to articulate just through words or still pictures. (go internet! go drummerworld!) and that's where that mystique comes from in my opionion. ...it's very jedi, haha.


Also, just wanted to ask about your take on the upper arm. I know there's more than one interpretation of moeller technique and, as I study it, it involves the stroke starting at the shoulder and the upper arm -almost like leading with the elbow (haha, here's that problem with not having a demonstration I was just talking about -now, if I only had a video camera...). Of course, this motion gets less with speed, but I noticed you keep your upper arms relatively still. Anyway, is that how you were taught, or did you just find that to work best in your experience ...or am I just totally off base with that observation heh heh.

Ok, I'll stop rambling on. Nice work!!!!

[djp132]

Also, just wanted to ask about your take on the upper arm. I know there's more than one interpretation of moeller technique and, as I study it, it involves the stroke starting at the shoulder and the upper arm -almost like leading with the elbow (haha, here's that problem with not having a demonstration I was just talking about -now, if I only had a video camera...). Of course, this motion gets less with speed, but I noticed you keep your upper arms relatively still. Anyway, is that how you were taught, or did you just find that to work best in your experience

Thanks for the kind words!

You're bringing up a good point with the upper arm. As far as the way I do it, if it's needed then I use it. When i use the moeller for backbeats on the drumset or big accents on the snare then I will use the upper arm and elbow to lift the wrist and whap the whole thing down. If I'm just playing some notes at a normal level then I don't use the arm at all, just the whip of the wrist. I'm one of the purists who believes that every motion should be as economical as possible; no wasted energy. If the wrist can get the job done on its own then the upper arm remains still. If I need that extra ounce of power then I will use the upper arm to achieve this.

I hope that helps. Feel free to email me.

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[Panos_from_greece!]

wow man you were really helpfull!!!I was looking forward on starting learning moeller technique and this was the best video that i could start with!You are a great teacher and also a musician i think because the last words you said about music expression and how we get there is the destination we all must aim at!!
again thanks!!

[djp132]

Tomorrow sometime I'm going to make and post a video explaining and demonstrating as many of the various hand grips and positions as i can think of. After the staggering success of the moeller video I knew I had to do another one. I recieved a lot of emails and questions relating to this topic so I felt that this should naturally be the next video.

As we mature as drummers and musicians our grip often takes a backseat to other things such as playing in general and musicianship (as it should); the grip goes on autopilot if you will. But recently theres been a lot of talk of the french and german grips, free strokes, left hand trad variations. And not only the grips themselves but also how to apply them to achieve the musical passages you desire. These are the things I hope to cover in the next video.

ANY comments, suggestions, requests are more than welcome.

Thanks
Derrick

[djp132]

Tomorrow sometime I'm going to make and post a video explaining and demonstrating as many of the various hand grips and positions as i can think of. After the staggering success of the moeller video I knew I had to do another one. I recieved a lot of emails and questions relating to this topic so I felt that this should naturally be the next video.

As we mature as drummers and musicians our grip often takes a backseat to other things such as playing in general and musicianship (as it should); the grip goes on autopilot if you will. But recently theres been a lot of talk of the french and german grips, free strokes, left hand trad variations. And not only the grips themselves but also how to apply them to achieve the musical passages you desire. These are the things I hope to cover in the next video.

ANY comments, suggestions, requests are more than welcome.

Thanks
Derrick

[aarbo]

But recently theres been a lot of talk of the french and german grips, free strokes, left hand trad variations. And not only the grips themselves but also how to apply them to achieve the musical passages you desire. These are the things I hope to cover in the next video.
ANY comments, suggestions, requests are more than welcome.
Thanks
Derrick
Hey Derrick,
you're right. A video about various grips would be the natural consequence...
When I think about various grips it's always crucial for me how healthy these grips are in physiological terms. You should evaluate the grips you are showing in these terms, too. I think one can only see how healthy a wrist movement is, after using it for several years.
You seem to have a lot of experience there...

Thanks

aarbo

[Jeff Almeyda]

Derrick,

I studied Moeller with Chapin and I have been continually frustrated at the confusion surrounding Moeller and the almost mystical attitude some people have towards the technique.

Your explanation of Moeller was spot-on!!! It's great to see someone getting this info out there to all of those people who don't have access to someone like Chapin.

Well done and I'll be sure to check out your other videos when they come out. Good teaching style too.

Jeff

[Martal]

Great,lokoing forward to it :)

[incubotic]

I really don't think you can get any clearer on Moeller technique. Excellent video Derrick. I think this should be a sticky, considering there is a thread posted every week with someone asking about this technique and there is no confusion what so ever in this explanation.

[Waterjet]

Damn fine work Derrick! You've a gift for teaching!!


Waterjet / Love the Drum / Worship at its Temple

[Drummer4Jesus]

Wow, thanks a lot. I have been confused about the Moeller technique for some time now. I knew it had something to do with rebound but I didn't know that it was that easy. I have been to Dom Famularo's cyber lessons to see how Jim Chapin explained it, but really it didn't help that much. I have also been to another web site which did nothing either. I can now do constant tripilets with my right and left hand and am soon starting some of the other exercises. Thanks again

[millerdakiller]

Websters Universal College Dictionary - TABOO - "the system or practice of setting things apart as sacred or forbidden for general use."

In my experience it seems that the Moeller technique was always this seemingly "magical" technique that the pros used to achieve some of their amazing speed, control and accuracy. However, it was quite difficult for normal students or drummers to find material to learn and properly use the technique. I highly doubt it was a matter of those pros keeping it a secret but nonetheless the amount of material available on the moeller technique was virtually nothing. This is how i meant the word to be used.

I do understand why you posed your question, and youre right, maybe i should have used a better word. The video was done in one take only so just about everything that was said was improvised on the spot. Also, in the larger scheme of things I dont think one word is more important than the video and technique as a whole.

I do appreciate your comment, and in future videos I will be a bit more aware of my vocabulary selection.

Once again, THANK YOU to everyone for the forum posts and emails. It's a great feeling to do something that educates and gives enjoyment to those who watch it. And remember, REBOUND!!!

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

hahahahahaha.

It's really not that serious. I was just pointing it out. The video was good, everyone else already said that. I just was wondering about the use of the word. Whatever, it's not that big a deal. Taboo is usually referring to smoething like sex or homosexuality or drug-abuse. Those are taboo. Whatever. Again, it's not that serious.

[TitanSound]

Excellent video.

I have become frustrated at my lack of progression using this grip. Your video explained a couple of things I had been missing in great detail.

I play match grip though would anything be different for the left hand or would or do I just emulate the right? It sometimes feels uncomfortable when I do that and have to play a more french style grip with my snare hand.

[bean6022000]

Hey Derrick - Great Work! Would you mind reading the article and viewing the videos at the wesite posted below and commenting? Unfortunately, I guess I did not fully "get" the Moeller thing, as I was concentrating on the "whip" and "pump" and the Moeller "upstroke" contained in these videos, as well as on the Chapin "Speed, Power and Endurance" video. I was not focusing on the rebound. Obviously, by focusing on the whip and pump, instead of the rebound, speed is reduced (i.e. you can only pump so fast). Also, Mr. Chapin tends to focus on the one hand concept and is a bit lacking on how to put the two hands together to achieve those blazing speeds. Thanks for your time, and once again, great work!
http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/MoellerJazz-Rock.htm

[Waterjet]

Yo Derrick - How about a little bio info to go with the clip? Where ya hail from and drumming history.


Waterjet / Love The Drum / Worship at its Temple

[sLarkin20]

Awesome video man, you are a very good teacher and explain things very well. Somebody give him his own section on the forums : P Your video is making it fairly easy and quick for me to catch onto the technique thanks again. Rebound!!!

[Stu_Strib]

That was the single most helpful, yet FREE!!!! video of the Moeller I've ever seen.

I am having a huge problem getting a triplet out of the bounces. I've got the 3 sixteenths down just fine, but when I try to switch to sextuplets or triplets, I can't get the spacing right on the rebounds. Any tips?

Also, I find it nearly impossible to do it with the first finger grip ;-)

[kjsm]

i use winamp vlc player etc

does anyone else find that the video pauses and wont play any further from about 5 minutes in?

i was really enjoyin this video - help please

[thinkintriplets]

So freaking awesome.

I actually understand the technique now.

Now to apply it....

thinkintriplets.

[centralzeke]

You can do it with the first finger grip that Dom advocates, but the thing is your grip must be very loose. I have it in both grips and find that I get way more bounce with more the middle finger than the first. But it can be done with the first.

[djp132]

I'm going to be sending a proposal to Hudson and other production companies for making a dvd (obviously covering a LOT more than just Moeller). So all the feedback I can get from you folks will be greatly appreciated as it will show that there is a demand for the dvd I'd like to make.

Thank you all!
Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[Skin Slapper]

like everyone said...

great video!! i have been sort of confused on the moeller stroke for a while, and after watching that i feel like all the loose ends got tied up and i understand it clearly now. thanks a lot

now... off to the woodshed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[davodi74]

Wow. Simply flawless. Was that a Pro Mark X-Pad on top of a 14" Signature Rem Mobley (or however you spell it) Djembe?

[djp132]

After the staggering response I got from my moeller video, I'm going to be sending a proposal to Hudson and other production companies for making a dvd (obviously covering a LOT more than just Moeller). So all the feedback I can get from you folks will be greatly appreciated as it will show that there is a demand for the dvd I'd like to make.

www.derrickpope.net/moellertechnique.wmv

Thank you all!
Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[Dyaxe]

hey,

that video was really great! really helped a lot. You explained it and demonstrated it both very well. thanks for posting this.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Thank You Bro Derrick !

Last night, 3 of us all Singaporeans Drummers from DrummerWorld were having a discussion on this Moeller Techniques when they were at my place (8pm to 12am).

They showed me this Techniques, but with their little Pinky last finger (moving up and down to do/control the rebound) and they used the middle finger to hold(just supporting actually) the sticks - the hand was free and using a whipping motion - however it was indeed a little different - cause of the Pinky.

Thank you for disseminating this useful Techniques (in it's correct manner) to us. The Video you put up by yourself doing the Moeller Techniques was indeed very explicit & clear - I'm going to start practicing it from now on.

Once again - Thank You !

PS: - Hey Brothers of DrummerWorld here - A Must Watch Video ... Very Educational & Enjoying .... Cheers !

[Chip]

Hey man, thanks, that was GREAT. That was really well presented, you seem to be a real natural at both the technique and teaching it. It was really well explained, like using the relating to throwing a ball, whipping a stagecoach & the bird crap for traditional, I find that is the best way to teach things, that's how I learned the freehand & gladstone, and now, hopefully and surely, the moeller thanks to your great video.
I've been wanting to learn it but I've just gotten an explanation in a such a way that I already thought I was doing it, but now, I'm off to practice!
The only problem is that with the moeller, when one gets faster, the rolls won't sound as clean as double strokes utilising fingers, with a real accent on the first stroke, but no other way to accent the other strokes. Hell, who cares? It's a great way to have relaxed rolls, but still fast. Whenever I try to do a fast single stroke in the middle of a groove, it makes the groove sound strained/choked, and most of the time it messes up the groove.
Cheers, thanks again, great video,I (and I'm sure most of us) look forward to the dvd!

[aarbo]

I'm going to be sending a proposal to Hudson and other production companies for making a dvd (obviously covering a LOT more than just Moeller). So all the feedback I can get from you folks will be greatly appreciated as it will show that there is a demand for the dvd I'd like to make.
Yeeehaaa! Do it! You'll have great success! And in half a year, when millions of DVDs have been sold, you can spend drummerworld a server-upgrade from your fat bank account :)
Hihi, good luck Derrick!

[Tofdo]

Great video, i would deffenitly want to get a dvd if you were to publish one through hudson or independently. I hope to see you do more on applying this technique to the drumset and how it can be used on more than quick snare rolls. great job

-topher

[chris--byrne]

I left a comment on your last thread about this saying you should get in contact with Hudson and I'm really glad you did... well done man !! If you can explain other techniques like you do in that clip I'm definatly up for buying a dvd. Good luck !!

[djp132]

Hey everyone, after the great response i got from everybody for the moeller video I knew i had to do another one. So here it is. First theres a little discussion about some questions i recieved about some specifics of the moeller technique. And then I explain and demonstrate the right hand jojo mayer one handed roll and the left hand buddy rich one handed roll.

As usual, I hope you all enjoy, and all feedback is welcome

www.derrickpope.net/onehandrolls.wmv

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[djp132]

Hey everyone, after the great response i got from everybody for the moeller video I knew i had to do another one. So here it is. First theres a little discussion about some questions i recieved about some specifics of the moeller technique. And then I explain and demonstrate the right hand jojo mayer one handed roll and the left hand buddy rich one handed roll.

As usual, I hope you all enjoy, and all feedback is welcome

www.derrickpope.net/onehandrolls.wmv

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[millerdakiller]

your technique is fantastic, let me just say that. YOu have the one handed roll so clean. I can do the right handed roll easily enough, but knowhere near as clean.

[Capitaine Quebec]

great video, easy to understand for any level player. Thanks a lot for sharing!

[stumprrp]

once again an incredible video, you are a GREAT teacher!

my reccomendation is lets hear you play on that ekit or an acoustic, you can rip hard dude...

or show us some cool stuff like hybrid rudiments and stuff, you know, joe morello tricks. lol.

[JustDrum]

Very well done. Easy to understand, great camera angles, and well explained. I, too, would like to hear it applied in a musical context. Great job though...thanks for sharing!

Ben

[Class A Drummer]

Hey man just gotta say that was just as interesting and inciteful as the first vid on the moeller technique, and i cant w8 to see your next video.

[Chip]

Congrats, great video again. You really go in depth and I really understand matched and trad. now (the price is right too, hehehe). Seriously, that was awesome. Thanks for removing the shroud from this tech.

OOHHH you have to do a heel-toe. I don't really get it and I'm sure after you explaining it I will be blazing at it!

You're a funny guy btw, did you edit it? The "Maybe I should practice matched" and "Derrick is thinking" were both hilarious.

[Martal]

Oh my god,Derrick,you're officially my new favourite superhero :).
*Feel free to sign this*


Awesome video,keep it up.

[ryan]

Another good lesson. Well done! Are those inspirational pictures on the practice set? ; )

[chris--byrne]

Derrick you're a teaching ledgend !! Again you made everything really clear. Haha and liked how you got a bit of comedy in there!! (yes you can tell I posted this while watching the video)

[averypoordrummer]

thanks very much yet again, the speed you did that open closed thing with one hand, unbelievable. explained perfectly too

thanks

[MuDvAyNe]

thanks again man!I would definately go for a heel-toe too!

[WeatherKing]

Nice job! Another great technique breakdown. This is what makes DW so great! Thanks.

Can you do a quick clip of the little stick twirl?

[KLittle123]

Hudson really needs to finance a video for you.

[funky]

Dude...thank you so much for taking the time to put that video together...the time and effort was MUCH APPRECIATED!

[KLittle123]

Derrick is thinking...

haha I had to crack up at that.

[Class A Drummer]

Forgot to say this in my last post...

[SIZE="3"]BERHNARD GIVE MY NEW BEST FRIEND DERRICK A PAGE ON THIS SITE IF YOU READ THIS!

[ToMsK]

ahh cheers, thats a great explaination of the Jojo technique

[NUTHA JASON]

you know, i am a self taught drummer and have been considering that one of these days i'd want lessons. i think my teacher should be someone like you. where are you based derek?

j

[MOONCHILD]

this is exactly what im missing.Dont get me wrong i know how much i worth and i have no trouble with any exercise about coordination(both arms both legs).But THIS is what i need

[DreamTheater4life]

awsome video. you should do a heel toe one also. That would be cool :-)

[AE Gauthier]

Awsome video man. I saw Jojo Mayer show "the Buddy Rich Trick" on a video here, and still didn't quite understand it, but I get it now. You explained it way better. Thanks!

[djp132]

Once again, I simply can't THANK YOU ALL enough for your unbelievable support and praise. I'm doing my best to remain humble HA! The process of making a DVD has been started but there's all the business and legal things to take care of first, so it might be awhile; but I sure do hope it goes through. I'll keep everyone updated (as if I even needed to say that). Thank you Thank you Thank you EVERYONE!!

Watch, learn, explore, take it as far as you can, and then reach furthur.

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[djp132]

Once again, I simply can't THANK YOU ALL enough for your unbelievable support and praise. I'm doing my best to remain humble HA! The process of making a DVD has been started but there's all the business and legal things to take care of first, so it might be awhile; but I sure do hope it goes through. I'll keep everyone updated (as if I even needed to say that). Thank you Thank you Thank you EVERYONE!!

Watch, learn, explore, take it as far as you can, and then reach furthur.

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[Bobhead]

Very helpful video!! Thanks for taking the time to explain the strokes.

[samthebeat]

Derick is the don.

I spent 100 quid on DVDs regarding these subjects, all of them had gaps. Like little peices missing in the puzzle or something, but this, the info is all there. Now i can sleep at night knowing im doing it right. Thankyou......because i could'nt before.

Nice one

[YanikJay]

Derrick man,
These videos are amazing. As for requests, would anyone else like to see Johnny Rabb's insanely fast singles explained? (Or is he just using the "push-pull"?)

[RythmPoint]

I GOT 2 WORDS: KICK @$$$$$$$$!!!!!

thanx a lot again man im already working on moeller and the results are coming!!!!.... cant wait for the "foot technique" video GREAT JOB man. as a request..... probably "independence" which i consider to be extremly important, i'd be anxious to check out ur 2 cents on that. good luck bro!!!

[Tim Waterson]

Derrick man,
These videos are amazing. As for requests, would anyone else like to see Johnny Rabb's insanely fast singles explained? (Or is he just using the "push-pull"?)
First JR does push pull but NOT for the WFD stuff he can ALSO do push pull triplets which he is callling 3 bomb at ourageous speeds.
I also do push pull triplets tradition grip as I get a more even sound than just the disected double.
Yes Derek great job on the vids.Your Left hand is different than Jo Jos so its neat to see another variation.
YOURS is the first video of Ps Pl I have seen where you teach them to accept the rebound by dipping the wrist this is the way I have been teaching also and have found it easier for the drummers to understand.
Keep up the GREAT vids you are an EXELLENT teacher.
Tim

[TitanSound]

Another great video mate!


Thanks for clearing up the matched grip confusion for me too. I'm gonna go hit the pad!

[djp132]

Hello everyone! I'm just writing to hear your feedback on how the vids are working. I've recieved tons of emails and responses on how well the vids were made and taught etc.. but as a teacher my real concern is that people learn from them.

I do GREATLY appreciate and am extremely happy for the praise I've gotten for the vids (and yes there will be more), but at this point I'm a little more interested to hear how they have helped (or not helped). I suppose it sounds like I'm fishing for compliments, but knowing that people are learning the techniques and exploring them musically is the best feeling I could get.

So what have you learned or not learned? How is it helping or not helping? Are there any questions I can answer for you? Have you taken the techniques further and come up with your own ideas? Anything at all, do not hesitate to contact me or reply!

Thank you all!
Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[tentpole]

Maybe not youtube,cause my computer always say it needs to download "java script" or something like that and then I do download it and it says I need to download it and I JUST DID! any way I didn't actually read the whole thread that you put but oh well.






tentpole

[peoplecallmeandrew]

whats the link?? filling 20 characters

[samthebeat]

I did learn something. The exersise for implementing the moller stroke is really good, and i have deffinetly felt a bit of improvement in the sort time i have used it.

As for the one handed roll, i was a bit confused on how it was different to moller. It seems pretty similar to me. Up stroke down stroke and all that one fluid motion. But you definetly made it sound easy, inspired to start learn it. I even read the one handed roll thread.....a thing that i thread avoided like the plague...pureley i figured it was to hard and not benficial enough to bother with.

But you have cleared that up. so in summary the answer is yes I deffinetly learnt good things from you.

[Class A Drummer]

I enjoyed both your videos so far and cant w8 for the next one. The moeller and one handed role are the 2 techniques i had been trying to learn and you were able to show me how. i am extremely thankful for that. In your next vid, could you show us a way to use it on the drum set? i mean times it would be good to use them and things like that. Cant w8 for your next vid.

[Skin Slapper]

great video man!

like everyone is saying... you really know how to explain things so we can understand them.

hey, do you know what this Gladstone technique is that ive heard about?

[Cabazon]

I'm still downloading this one, but I watched your moeller video and it helped SO much more than anything else. You're great at explaining stuff!

Edit: Just watched it. I loved it as much as the last. I've always been slightly baffled by this technique, and now I see that it's so simple!

[DrumProgressive]

So when is your first dvd coming ?

[beatsMcGee]

definitly thinkg you should explore the heel toe fiasco

[crazydrummer]

EXCELLENT VIDEO! GREAT! Thank you very much!

[djp132]

For those who were unable to view the windows media versions, I managed to convert them to a quicktime format that has the same quality and even better, the same low filesize! Hope you enjoy, and keep the feedback coming!

SUPER special thanks to Darren (unirunner) for his expertise and assistance.

http://www.derrickpope.net/onehandrolls.mp4
http://www.derrickpope.net/moellertechnique.mp4

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[YanikJay]

Yeah,
Your videos on the moller were excellent. But I still have two questions similar to those already posted:

1) How can we apply the moller stroke on the drumset?
2) How is the Triplet "Johhny Rabb" roll different than the moeller?

[the.tree]

I kinda wanna see you play on the full set, that video was nothing short of amazing but im curious to see you on the set.

[centralzeke]

Derrick man,
These videos are amazing. As for requests, would anyone else like to see Johnny Rabb's insanely fast singles explained? (Or is he just using the "push-pull"?)

Yeah, I'd like to see a Johnny Rabb technique video, not the ones he's doing where he's like follow me (and does extremely fast singles). He holds his sticks very lightly and it's finger control.

[Class A Drummer]

Also could you do the fastest role you can possibly do (whether you have to use the moeller, one handed role or anything) ???

[Stu_Strib]

Hey Derrick,

I'm not sure what you have to do, but could you make the qt videos start playing as soon as you click them (like here on DW) and not have to download the whole thing before it opens?

I know yours will be good, but usually I like to just watch the first part to see if it is worth my time ;-)

[Bernhard]

Just added these two Videos to the Drummerworld Clinic Section - in Quicktime.

Moeller Technique

http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope1.html

One Handed Roll Technique:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope2.html

So everybody sure agree: great stuff - more to follow.....

Bernhard

[NUTHA JASON]

excellent Bernhard. derrick deserves recognition for his contributions.

keep 'em coming derrick.

j

[funked_up]

Great Stuff Derek!! Thanks so much for the inspiration and the teachings. I think the most important thing I learned from the video is the excersies to practice the moeller technique in. Ex. One hand, two hands, seperate hands etc. Gonna' go practice now, thanks!!

Tim

[ewanlaing]

i've seen a lot of tutorial internet drum clips and that one made more sense than any of the others. it's nice to have someone actually explain things completely. sometimes you get the feeling with other tutorials that you need a drummer dictionary to really understand anything, but i caught every word.
keep it up. excellent work.

[KLittle123]

I'm not exagerating when I say that your videos are probably the best explanation of these techniques. I watch like all these pros like Weckl and such "explaining" it when all they do is show it and like, have the worst explanation. They kind of give me a bad technique explanation. But your vids are good.

[Jumma]

I am new to this site. I can't seem to be able to play the qt ver of your vids and it says the components are not available anymore. Can you poin me to a spot where I can get them in another format?

[Bernhard]

I am new to this site. I can't seem to be able to play the qt ver of your vids and it says the components are not available anymore. Can you poin me to a spot where I can get them in another format?

You need Quicktime 7 - you have probably to update the Player (..for free)

Bernhard

[The Groove Factor]

Greta job.Mine needs work and you really gave me a great guide.
Thanks kindly Derrick(I think Hudson Music should call You)!

[scabo0o]

hey derrick i cant do the trad grip on my left hand so would it still be as good if i just used match grip for both and.....stupid question? i dont know? thanks for the movie tho it helped a bunch on my technique

[scabo0o]

its ok you dont have to answer i just watched your one handed role video and you mentioned it in there thanks

[Stu_Strib]

Hey Derrick,

The moeller is starting to click in my left hand trad grip (great for continuos triplet comping!). Can you explain how the moeller would be used to play the burning fast ride patterns on some of that super fast jazz stuff?

In "SPANG SPANG-a LANG SPAN-a LANG" would the moeller "upstroke" be on the "-a" part of the moeller?

[dan]

I'd love to see and explanation of the Gladstone techinque!

[mirzepapa]

I'm going to be sending a proposal to Hudson and other production companies for making a dvd (obviously covering a LOT more than just Moeller). So all the feedback I can get from you folks will be greatly appreciated as it will show that there is a demand for the dvd I'd like to make.

hi derrick
as forementioned: great videos, that coud have saved me a lot of time, if i have seen them earlier. but it`s never too late and hardly ever too earlie. since most drum teachers - myself included to some extent - teach only one way of holding the stick, performing a stroke, playing a groove etc, too me your biggest "invention" is feel free to hold the stick like you feel comfortable with ... wow! cannot be estimated highly enough.

some suggestions from my learning praxis with moeller (which took me years to be honest)
- most moeller teachers seem to come from a jazz background - so let`s be the new generation to apply moeller in the rock and pop thing (incorporated in groove, fill and solo situations)
- playing moeller technique with the feet: some ideas of that can be found on the steve smith dvd, he calls it constant release, which is pretty much the same like moeller.
- i found the moeller technique helpfull especially with playing ghostnotes on the snare. it opened up my mind for a whole new concept of ghosting. so, if can ask for a chapture about ghostnotes and strong backbeat? ;-)

so far for today. i think i will come up with some more ideas while practicing your great stuff. all the best, sebastian.

[(no-logo)]

thankyou!

this is the video Ive been waiting years to see for years!


looking forward to your heel toe video.


quality teacher :)

[spinupspindown]

Agreeing with everyone. That was the best explanation yet. I wish more videos were like this -- instead of dealing with a lot of topics in 1.5 hours, you chose to focus on one small topic for 20 mins. That's way more helpful.

I thought I had a good handle on how to do the Moeller technique -- well, it seems I was about 80% right, but your explanation showed what I have to refine. Many, many thanks for that!

I'd love to see something about the Gladstone technique in future episodes. And a discussion of grips!

[mrs.wega]

Thanks a lot for this video! I practice the moeller technique as often as I can, and your video was very informative, and you explained it in a very good way...

So now I will use your tips also, when I practice..

Thanks!

[djp132]

Here it is ladies and gentlemen. Basic foot technique and a full explanation / demonstration of the heel / toe technique.

To be honest I'm a little nervous that this video will live up to the "hype" of the first two. So if you don't like it, please be gentle :)

www.derrickpope.net/derrickheeltoe.wmv
www.derrickpope.net/derrickheeltoe.mp4

Hope you enjoy!
Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[drumz4eva]

i havent even started watching it yet.....but i already want to congratulate u....

u make great video explaining stuff.....deffinatly some of the best videos here

( my opionon )'


because he doesnt just show the technique once.....and then just show us his mad skillz ( alot like other vids i have seen) but he really goes into depth....


so i give u props

[Class A Drummer]

Great vid. ur online right now so i hope i can get this answer fast (not that there is any rush) but when u are doing the hit with the heel, are you just hitting with the heel? because it looks like you are using the rest of the foot exept the toe area.

Once again, love the vid, just as good as the other.

[low-tech]

awesome. great video, im more of a "slider" but i cant do it as a roll with a double kick. ill definately study from this, thanks

[Drummer4Jesus]

Most excellent video man. I have always wondered how guys got so fast on a double pedal. I always love the videos that you come out with. They're so easy to comprehend and fun to do. I wouldn't be surprised if people start suing you for the tricks you’re giving away. Keep em comin, they're great.

[fourstringdrums]

Very nice. It's nice to see a heel-toe video that focuses on using it continuously instead of just quick doubles.

*edit* The only thing I would've added is that, as in the other thread about this, while you have your whole foot on the footboard, you can actually leave your heel on the heel plate and play the technique just fine because the first stroke comes from the middle of your foot hitting more than the heel itself.

[drummer625]

that helped me a lot can you send me all your other videos too...thanks

just send it to me in a personal message or to cdoubravsky@msn.com

[LimaBeans]

I'm a little bit confused about when you said that it can be done with any shoe size. It appears that if you are actually using the heel for the first stroke, then shoe size would matter. I wear a size 13 (U.S.) shoe, but I've found an alternate way of doing this technique with a toe-ball.

Here is a forum that helped me with multiple toe-ball videos. Maybe it can help the other big-foot handicapped people in DrummerWorld.
http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/showthread.php?t=100222
He also uses toe-ball with double bass rolls.

In conclusion, the reason everyone was getting confused (about whether or not the heel is used) is because it can be done either way. If you have big feet, you probaly either have to learn the toe-ball way or spend more cash on equipment.

[beatsMcGee]

great video, also the one on the pearl site was very! informative... some one should steal it and sticky it up here... ahem....nutha...cough...dogbreath...

[NUTHA JASON]

ahem did that months ago. its buried in the heel toe sticky.

great vids again d.

j

[flO]

You dont really have to use your heel. The first stroke you create is made by lifting your entire foot(leg) up and coming down and the second is made by lowering your foot into the pedal as your leg is starting to come back up for the next one. I was a bit surprised when I realized that many drummers that have been playing longer than me(I got my first drumset for christmas) cannot do this because its actually quite simple.

Off topic I would like to thank derek and just everyone at drummerworld(Bernhard). Ive been playing for only half a year and I'm glad that I found this site so early in my playing because I have learned ALOT and im doing very well, especially for someone who hasnt taken lessons, although I plan on finding an instructor sometime in the near future.. and im having alot of FUN which is all that matters. excuse my rambling

[Stu_Strib]

Do you ever apply your heel toe method "interlocked" with the other foot, as fast singles instead of doubles? I.e., like conga playing Right Heel, Left Heel, right toe, left toe?

I always hate the sound of doubles on a bass drum, as it is usually painfully obvious (due to slack tuning mostly).

Also, you mentioned the Steve Smith approach but moved on to heel toe...how are they different? Smith version doesn't rock back as much I noticed, but the motion is still pretty much the same.

Have you tried the Lang approach? Where all the single and double strokes are played after the heel drop (i.e., the heel drop is used for accents only)? I find it impossible to mix his heel drop then heel down mode!

[Tim Waterson]

DEREK
Great Job on the vid
I see your heel comming down as well meaning as I told the naysayers that the heel does control the strokes using that motion LOL
STU ...
Sorry to cut in but FREEDIE Gruber told me and was very adament..
about teaching Steve to go TOE- Heel not heel toe to achieve a more cosistant rolling sound
he made Steve practice this motion for about 6 months ouch!!!!
and YES the Heel toe motion can be turned into a single stroke roll.
Tim

[paris72]

Sweet man, thanks!!!!!

[Bernhard]

Derrick is the man.

The two Videos in the Drummerworld Clinic Section (...not the forum) are doing great

12'000 downloads for Moeller - 7'000 downloads for Onehand.

Now we have the new Heel/Toe:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope3.html

Again many thanks - and great stuff!!!

Bernhard

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

He makes these great videos, just finished watching the heel-toe method and realised I'm using a slightly different method for my right foot, but no matter. It works for me. He's a great teacher and explains things simply and easily. Good work Derrick!

[aahznightsky]

great videos ... ive watched all 3

i have an easier time with the Steve Smith something release method ... I think it's because I have a pretty tight pedal tension. I know Steve Gadd also has been doing this method for decades longer than Smith has, however. Anyways, great, informative vids, gonna help put alot of beginning players on the proper track!

[fourstringdrums]

I'm a little bit confused about when you said that it can be done with any shoe size. It appears that if you are actually using the heel for the first stroke, then shoe size would matter.

In the "do you need a heel-plate for heel-toe" thread I made a video showing me doing this technique with my foot far back on the pedal to show that it's really the bottom of your foot hitting the footboard on the first stroke, and not your actual heel. My foot motion isn't as extreme, but you get the idea.

www.handidrummed.com/heel-toe.wmv

[beatsMcGee]

ahem did that months ago. its buried in the heel toe sticky.

great vids again d.

j


oops, sorry, i also ment we should stick the one from the pearl site, derek and that dudes videos are both awesome.. that kid from the pearl site can kick it real fast...

[crazydrummer]

:(:(:(:(

My foot is too big and my pedal is too small :-(

[fourstringdrums]

:(:(:(:(

My foot is too big and my pedal is too small :-(

I don't understand why with the other advice and threads regarding big feet and heel-toe technique, people aren't getting it: Foot size doesn't matter. It's called heel-toe, but your actual heel isn't necessary to play the technique.

Just think of it this way:

1) You come down with your whole leg for the downbeat, regardless of what part of your foot hits the footboard. It could be your heel, the middle of your foot, the ball of your foot etc..

2) You make the second hit on the offbeat with your toe on the offbeat.

Again, refer to this video http://www.handidrummed.com/heel-toe.wmv I'm playing with my heel completely off the heel-plate but because the bottom of my foot is the part hitting the footboard, it makes the first hit, and then my toe follows through for the second stroke.

Having large feet may make it harder to play this technique successfully right away, but practice and you'll get it.

[crazydrummer]

on your video, that's not the heel/toe technique !? The man on your video use just the toe?

[deltadrummer1]

[QUOTE=djp132]Me explaining and demonstrating the moeller technique. Give it a watch and let me know what you think. Its a home DIY job so the quality isnt dvd. Feedback is always welcome

Hello, I have recently watched your video concerning the Moeller technique and must say that it was very insightful. . . but I have a question for you. Does this technique involve only single strokes or can it involve double strokes too? I DO see that the first stroke is the main hit...then the other two hits aren't forced, but bounce. I understand it that the stick does the work for you there..But, for example, once you put it all together at around 14:20 in the video, (the triplets), you've got both hands goin' pretty good. So at that particular part of your video, is it single strokes or double strokes. Thanks. And once again, great video.

[fourstringdrums]

on your video, that's not the heel/toe technique !? The man on your video use just the toe?

That's me on the video. I still consider this heel-toe. Although my ankle isn't moving as extremely as some might, I'm still using my whole leg for the first stroke and then my toe for the second.

[crazydrummer]

That's me on the video. I still consider this heel-toe. Although my ankle isn't moving as extremely as some might, I'm still using my whole leg for the first stroke and then my toe for the second.


Yeah, good technique too !

I'll try it tomorrow, but Derrick gives me some advice for the "heel/toe" so now i can do it (not perfectly but it's not to bad :-p )

[fourstringdrums]

Yeah, good technique too !

I'll try it tomorrow, but Derrick gives me some advice for the "heel/toe" so now i can do it (not perfectly but it's not to bad :-p )

Just remember, now matter how you have your foot on the pedal, the idea is still the same. Your whole leg is playing the downbeat, while your toe plates the off beat.

[LimaBeans]

In the "do you need a heel-plate for heel-toe" thread I made a video showing me doing this technique with my foot far back on the pedal to show that it's really the bottom of your foot hitting the footboard on the first stroke, and not your actual heel. My foot motion isn't as extreme, but you get the idea.

www.handidrummed.com/heel-toe.wmv

I think that you're missing the whole point of my post. In Derrick's video, he says that the heel is actually producing the stroke. He is apparently using a seesaw type motion that literally uses the heel and toe to produce the strokes. In the pearl videos and your video, the toe-ball technique (which seems obviously different than heel-toe) is being used. In the context that the heel has to touch the footboard (heel-toe), size does matter; however, in the toe-ball technique (like I think you are talking about), size doesn't matter.

[fourstringdrums]

I think that you're missing the whole point of my post. In Derrick's video, he says that the heel is actually producing the stroke. He is apparently using a seesaw type motion that literally uses the heel and toe to produce the strokes. In the pearl videos and your video, the toe-ball technique (which seems obviously different than heel-toe) is being used. In the context that the heel has to touch the footboard (heel-toe), size does matter; however, in the toe-ball technique (like I think you are talking about), size doesn't matter.

Yes, I understand, but as I said the basic principal is the same, and that's what I didn't want people to forget.

[averypoordrummer]

great heel toe vid.

i didnt have a clue before that,

thanks

[ewanlaing]

I think that you're missing the whole point of my post. In Derrick's video, he says that the heel is actually producing the stroke. He is apparently using a seesaw type motion that literally uses the heel and toe to produce the strokes. In the pearl videos and your video, the toe-ball technique (which seems obviously different than heel-toe) is being used. In the context that the heel has to touch the footboard (heel-toe), size does matter; however, in the toe-ball technique (like I think you are talking about), size doesn't matter.
i'll have to use the toe-ball version, cos my stupid sonor pedal as a foot stopper.

[Bernhard]

i'll have to use the toe-ball version, cos my stupid sonor pedal as a foot stopper.

Lol -- take the footstopper away, as all drummers do....like Jojo - also a Sonor Drummer

Bernhard

[Shane G]

This is my first post, but its gonna be a good one so here goes:

Derrick is explaining the Moeller technique wrong...way wrong.
I dont know how after watching Chapin explain & demonstrate it in his video & on the Firth site any of you people could think Derrick is playing it correctly.

And since I know (anticipate) Im gonna get flamed for this, maybe even runout of here, I'll state a few points for discussion before the onslaught comes.

For starters:
1. Your elbow should be relaxed & at your side. Derricks isnt.
2. Most importantly, your wrist should NOT be bent. (like in a waving bye-bye manner) It should rotate, like turning a key in a lock.
3. Moeller never wanted to see your palms. Chapin states that in his video. Derrick clearly bends his wrists back while demonstrating Moeller.

And I dont have some vendetta against Derrick. I think Jeff Queen gets it (Moeller)completely wrong on the Firth site too.

There you go.
Have at it.

[djp132]

This is my first post, but its gonna be a good one so here goes:

Derrick is explaining the Moeller technique wrong...way wrong.
I dont know how after watching Chapin explain & demonstrate it in his video & on the Firth site any of you people could think Derrick is playing it correctly.

And since I know (anticipate) Im gonna get flamed for this, maybe even runout of here, I'll state a few points for discussion before the onslaught comes.

For starters:
1. Your elbow should be relaxed & at your side. Derricks isnt.
2. Most importantly, your wrist should NOT be bent. (like in a waving bye-bye manner) It should rotate, like turning a key in a lock.
3. Moeller never wanted to see your palms. Chapin states that in his video. Derrick clearly bends his wrists back while demonstrating Moeller.

And I dont have some vendetta against Derrick. I think Jeff Queen gets it (Moeller)completely wrong on the Firth site too.

There you go.
Have at it.

First let it be said that NO ONE will spam Shane. He has his right to an opinion and I actually do appreciate him speaking it.

All I can do is give a bit of dialogue in my defense to your observations. First the elbows should be where THEY want to be and were they feel most comfortable for the individual. Saying they HAVE to be inside is no different than saying that they HAVE to be over your head touching your ears. There is no such thing as "HAVE TO".

Second, the turn stroke youre referring to in 2 and 3 is more of a gladstone free stroke technique that whips back up as soon as contact with the head is made. Just as a weight lifter turns the weight as he lifts it, so does the forearm rotate on the up and down strokes. This generates much momentum, but because the wrist is turning it negates rebound. If used in the moeller it does not generate the movement necessary for the rebounds. The bending of the wrist and lifting it first IS the moeller technique, whether you use it for rebounds or whatever else. The whip, snap, throwing a ball, however you think of it is the MAIN motion of the technique. Everything that happens after is simply things to do WITH the technique.

Finally, a lot has changed in drumming in the last few decades. The way the moeller is applied to jazz is almost completely different to the way it would be applied in rock. The moeller was invented not only to get a big sound out of cheap rotting wood and rope drums, but to achieve a visual uniformity for the players, the same reason drumcorps are so anal about the techniques they use (and rightfully so). But now it's all about individual expression and how YOU want the technique to work for you.

I will NOT say that your explanation is wrong, because there is no wrong. I will not say that my way is the only one true way, because it isn't. All I can do is show the motions, how to use them, and then it's up to the person to take it from there. If the ways you mentioned are how you perform the technique and they work for you, then that is all that matters.

I have no vendetta towards you either Shane, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Logical and intelligent debate is how people move closer to true answers, not by bickering (or flaming).

Thanks again
Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[Shane G]

First the elbows should be where THEY want to be and were they feel most comfortable for the individual. Saying they HAVE to be inside is no different than saying that they HAVE to be over your head touching your ears. There is no such thing as "HAVE TO".
I never said the elbows HAVE TO be at your sides.

What I said was, they should be relaxed & at your sides. They are gonna move in & out a little bit, and alot if you do the "full" Moeller. (raising the stick above your head)

My point w/the elbows is, the muscles involved moving (or holding, as in your video) the elbow out & away from your body have nothing to do with the Moeller stroke. The stroke comes from the wrist snap, not the elbow. (Generally...if your going for the full power, then the elbow generates it, but I digress)

Second, the turn stroke youre referring to in 2 and 3 is more of a gladstone free stroke technique that whips back up as soon as contact with the head is made. Just as a weight lifter turns the weight as he lifts it, so does the forearm rotate on the up and down strokes. This generates much momentum, but because the wrist is turning it negates rebound. If used in the moeller it does not generate the movement necessary for the rebounds. The bending of the wrist and lifting it first IS the moeller technique, whether you use it for rebounds or whatever else. The whip, snap, throwing a ball, however you think of it is the MAIN motion of the technique. Everything that happens after is simply things to do WITH the technique.
No...Im not describing the Gladstone technique, cause I dont even know how to play that way, much less describe or teach it.

What I am saying, is that one's hand must follow the stick on the rebound. Which, is accepting the rebound. I like to use the dribbling basketball analogy. One doesnt bend down & pick up the ball while dribbling. You let your hand "float" with the ball after throwing it to the ground.
Same motion w/the stick. With Moeller Method, your hand must "float" or follow the rebound of the stick back to its up (or starting) posistion.
Difference here is, your hand in the starting posistion should be with the thumb up, knuckles forward, "Fonzie" style. This is accomplished in Moeller by rotating your wrist, not having your wrist bent, as you do in your video. If you touch your sticktip to the pad, your wrist should be level & flat.

I will NOT say that your explanation is wrong, because there is no wrong. I will not say that my way is the only one true way, because it isn't. All I can do is show the motions, how to use them, and then it's up to the person to take it from there. If the ways you mentioned are how you perform the technique and they work for you, then that is all that matters.
I agree that there isnt a wrong way, cause there are as many ways to strike a drum as there are drummers.

However....the way Chapin teaches Moeller is the way I play. Jim learned it from Moeller himself, and as such I believe what Mr. Chapin teaches.
Point Im getting at is what you demonstrate in your video is not what Chapin teaches or demonstrates in his videos.


I have no vendetta towards you either Shane, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Logical and intelligent debate is how people move closer to true answers, not by bickering (or flaming).
Thanks, Derrick, and I appreciate that.

Id like to say that having a "discussion" like this on a message board is very difficult, at least for me.
If I were sitting across from you, w/a practice pad between us, I know I could articulate and demonstrate these concepts much shorter & quickly.

So Im gonna do my best, and I hope Im explaining my points clearly.

[Stu_Strib]

Shane,

We do a good job with flame repellent around here and we won't flame you. I've been on this thread awhile, and let me just say that you should state your opinions more diplomatically. You disagree, fine. Don't come in here on your first post and turn the whole world upside down with a pretty defiant post like that. Keep in mind, you have 2 posts and Jeff Queen is an endorsed professional, so I'm not too sure many people are going to take your word too seriously. Nobody on here knows you, and with only 2 posts, we can't measure the value of your input.

With that, I am no Moeller expert, but have seen all of the videos you talk about (and others), and I don't see anything majorly different between Derrick's, Jeff Queen's (which is used in a rudimental setting) and the Chapin ones. The basic concept is the same with the bent wrist "flicking bird poo off your hand" motion and the elbows twitching outward a bit. If you want to debate the subtleties therein, that's fine. The "turning of the wrist/fonzie/dribbling a basketball" motion you are describing is the foundation of the gladstone/free stroke...throw the stick down, let it bounce back to your hand, moving your hand out of the way of the stick...Tiger Bill covers this really well, and even uses the same basketball dribbling analogy. Perhaps you have your technique names backwards?

The good thing about Derrick's video is that he explains it for FREE whereas many of the other gimmicky web sites out there want you to pay a price for the latest "Speed Secrets". Derrick is also much more down to Earth, less preachy, and less clinical in his approach. I like this video a lot (although the quality of the shots and production could be brought up a bit).

[Jeff Almeyda]

I have studied with Morello, Chapin and Famularo and let me tell you, even THEY disagree on finer technical points. I speak to these guys on at least a once a month basis so I am definitely connected to the "source".

Chapin recently told Famularo that I had the form and concept of the Moeller stroke as good as anyone. This isn't BS, you can ask them about Jeff Almeyda if you ever meet them.

Enough about my qualifications.

While it is true that Derrick is not demonstrating it exactly as Chapin teaches it, (Chapin comes at it from more of a German position and he doesn't show his palms when the stick is up) he is getting the primary concept of multiple hits from one downstroke. I believe that Derrick could get even more power and speed if he switched to a more "outward" position but he's still pretty good.. I also disagree with his nomenclature a little but nothing major. Out of a 100 I'd give him an 85.

As far as Shane's point #2 about the wrist not being bent, I disagree entirely. How can you get a whip without first going up then whipping down? The turning motion he descibes sounds like low formal strokes (ala Gladstone) from a French position. Also, for more advanced applications of the whip such as informal pull-outs (aka upstrokes) in which you "steal a tap" before the primary stroke you definitely need to move the wrist down and then up. If Shane can show us how to get a whip from that turning motion I'd love to see his video.

My 2 cents. Hope this helps.

[djp132]

I have studied with Morello, Chapin and Famularo and let me tell you, even THEY disagree on finer technical points. I speak to these guys on at least a once a month basis so I am definitely connected to the "source".


Could you put me in touch? I'd like their feedback / words-of-wisdom on the videos (and cause they rule).

Derrick
djp132@gmail

[Shane G]

I've been on this thread awhile, and let me just say that you should state your opinions more diplomatically. You disagree, fine. Don't come in here on your first post and turn the whole world upside down with a pretty defiant post like that. Keep in mind, you have 2 posts and Jeff Queen is an endorsed professional, so I'm not too sure many people are going to take your word too seriously. Nobody on here knows you, and with only 2 posts, we can't measure the value of your input.
I thought I did state my opinions diplomatically. I disagreed with Derrick, listed the reasons why, and will continue to do so.

I realize no one on here knows me, and that I am not, as you say, “an endorsed professional.”
As for my “credentials,” all I can say is this:
I am the Applied Music (percussion) instructor here: www.alvincollege.edu have been since 1992, and I have taken private lessons from Jim Chapin and Dom Famularo in the past.

With that, I am no Moeller expert, but have seen all of the videos you talk about (and others), and I don't see anything majorly different between Derrick's, Jeff Queen's (which is used in a rudimental setting) and the Chapin ones. The basic concept is the same with the bent wrist "flicking bird poo off your hand" motion and the elbows twitching outward a bit. If you want to debate the subtleties therein, that's fine. The "turning of the wrist/fonzie/dribbling a basketball" motion you are describing is the foundation of the gladstone/free stroke...throw the stick down, let it bounce back to your hand, moving your hand out of the way of the stick...Tiger Bill covers this really well, and even uses the same basketball dribbling analogy. Perhaps you have your technique names backwards?
No, I don’t think I have my technique names backwards.

I dislike using analogies, but sometimes it helps. My “turning of the wrist/fonzie/dribbling a basketball” was my attempt to describe how the wrist should move while executing the Moeller technique. Its what Chapin demonstrates in his videos, and its what I teach. The only reason you should move your elbow away from your body is to get a bigger/louder accent. But your wrist should still stay level. Derricks doesn’t. His elbow is out while striking the drum in addition to his wrist being bent.

[djp132]

I'm stayin out of this one. heh

We all do it our own way, it's all good, and that's the way it's supposed to be. I would hope and think that that would end the discussion.

Derrick

[Shane G]

While it is true that Derrick is not demonstrating it exactly as Chapin teaches it, (Chapin comes at it from more of a German position and he doesn't show his palms when the stick is up) he is getting the primary concept of multiple hits from one downstroke. I believe that Derrick could get even more power and speed if he switched to a more "outward" position but he's still pretty good.. I also disagree with his nomenclature a little but nothing major. Out of a 100 I'd give him an 85.
Right, I agree w/you on the point about Derrick having the primary concept down.(multiple hits from one downstroke)

However….in Moeller, (as you obviously are aware) your hand “floats” w/the stick on the multiple hits.
In Derricks video he doesn’t do that. His hand is stationary.


As far as Shane's point #2 about the wrist not being bent, I disagree entirely. How can you get a whip without first going up then whipping down? The turning motion he descibes sounds like low formal strokes (ala Gladstone) from a French position. Also, for more advanced applications of the whip such as informal pull-outs (aka upstrokes) in which you "steal a tap" before the primary stroke you definitely need to move the wrist down and then up. If Shane can show us how to get a whip from that turning motion I'd love to see his video.
You get the whip from the elbow, if you need it.
If the wrist is generating the whip, then you are playing really fast & low to the drum. The only purpose for a whip at extreme tempos is to play accents. The slower & larger the motion, the more the arm takes over. But the wrist still stays straight.

As for pull-outs, I don’t know why you say to move the wrist “down and then up.” The point of raising the wrist up is to drop it, therefore achieving your accent & primary stoke. Pull-outs are really nothing more than upstrokes. If you raise your wrist, when you drop it you should still be turning your wrist, not bending it.

As for my video, I figured that would be one of the first responses here – “Well Derrick has his video, lets see yours.”
All I can say is, Im sorry, I don’t have one. Nor do I have the means to make one.

[Bernhard]

When I saw all these videos from Derrick the clouds went away and I see now everything clear and simple. It's really the first time in 40 years I feel to have checked something about those mysteries of Moeller.

Thank you so much and it really helped me a big lot. See also the answers of the forum members - thinking the same way.

Now - as usual - the experts come in and find some hair in the soup.

But this time I don't let the confusion start again - close the book - and stay with these really great Videos of Derrick Pope. Well done.

For me: closed - but I'm waiting for next video!!!!

Bernhard

[Shane G]

We all do it our own way, it's all good, and that's the way it's supposed to be. I would hope and think that that would end the discussion.
Well.....kind of.

Lots of "famous" drummers have studied Moeller technique.
Guys that come to mind right now are Kenny Aronoff, Joey Kramer, Liberty DeVitto, Max Weinberg, & so on.

And none of them play or strike the drum the same way.

But they also dont have a video on DrummerWorld claiming "this is how you do Moeller."

[djp132]

But they also dont have a video on DrummerWorld claiming "this is how you do Moeller." I don't remember making a video that said that either. I remember saying heres how I do the motions, here's how I create rebound, and here's how I approach the technique.
Go back and watch the last 60 seconds of the video where I don't even have sticks in my hand.

Derrick

PS - i feel silly now that i got involved in this little debate. thanks

[Shane G]

I don't remember making a video that said that either. I remember saying heres how I do the motions, here's how I create rebound, and here's how I approach the technique.
Go back and watch the last 60 seconds of the video where I don't even have sticks in my hand.
Great....thats how you do it.

Its just not Moeller, thats all.

PS - i feel silly now that i got involved in this little debate. thanks
I feel silly also. I waited for quite a while after seeing your video before posting.

But Im just tired of seeing "explanations" for Moeller that arent correct.

I believe Chapin's is correct.
Sure...you can "kind of" use Moeller, or play Moeller-like, but to me, if you arent playing & striking the drum the way Chapin describes, it aint Moeller.

You obviously are a good instructor Derrick. Your video is clearly explained.
I realize what Im proposing is "technique semantics."

I really wish I could shoot my own video.

[Auger]

I don't mean to butt in, but just thought I'd add, along the lines of what Derrick Said, is that there are actually several different interpretations of Moeller Technique -all of which are completely valid and, although they look fairly different visually, all work on the same basic principle for the most part.

In fact, as I understand and have seen demonstrated, the original technique for marching snare as Moeller himself taught it looked as much more like a combination fanning / whiping motion (hard to describe, but also very different) to work best for an angled marching snare. Chapin adopted this for drumset.

The Moeller motion as I was taught looks fairly different than the way Derrick shows it. I supect I was taught something more like what Shane describes ... but the basic, underlying principle is more or less the same. I think Derrick's video was really good because most people don't know *any* of these various interpretations and, as far as I can tell, none is really any better than any other when it comes to the results achieved.

besides, aside from the motion, it's all about the love, people, the LOVE!

hee hee. bye.

[Stu_Strib]

Ok, Shane, you just earned a lot more credibility with me at least. Keep in mind, we get new guys in here all the time with their first post that say, "Oh yeah, well I can play 17,432 bpm using quadruple 6tuplet 5 strokes!". Call me a skeptic ;-)

So I reread your post with the cloud of "this guy has some authority" over my head and it reads much differently. Obviously you know the difference between gladstone/freestroke and moeller, but when you read it with a cloud of doubt the first time, it sounds like you might be a mixed up newbie.

My apologies.

So your insight, as valid as it is, is great. I still don't understand though how you don't agree with the kinked wrist!!!!! I've been trying for a year (after 20 years of drumming) to figure out the moeller, and Derricks video is the first one that explained how to steal a beat on the up stroke with the quick wrist kink (or I guess as you call it, a quick turn of the wrist, like in the Dave Weckl video on here?). Keeping in mind that the faster the tempo gets, the smaller the kink of the wrist gets, and eventually there really isn't even a kink. But to develop this technique at slow tempos, you really have to exaggerate the kink motion (ala Jeff Queen's video).


Like you said though, it would much easier to sit across from each other with a practice pad than tryin got explain it on here. Too bad you don't have a simple web cam or video camera to post!

Here's why I said you weren't diplomatic...you came in screaming about how awful Derrick's video is (even though it has unlocked a tough subject for me), instead of stating your credentials and saying why. Instead, you just said why, and some of us took that as a newb trying to upstage the latest greatest free video! Diplomatic would have been to say "thanks for the demonstration, but keep in mind...."

Welcome to the forum! Now if you could please give us a better way to develop the alternating moeller strokes than the way Derrick does, I'd be appreciative. Derricks video has done wonders for my left hand comping, but everytime I try to do singles with alternating sticks I just default to my usual double stroke RLLRRL RLLRRL...

[Shane G]

My apologies.
No apology necessary.

So your insight, as valid as it is, is great. I still don't understand though how you don't agree with the kinked wrist!!!!! I've been trying for a year (after 20 years of drumming) to figure out the moeller, and Derricks video is the first one that explained how to steal a beat on the up stroke with the quick wrist kink (or I guess as you call it, a quick turn of the wrist, like in the Dave Weckl video on here?). Keeping in mind that the faster the tempo gets, the smaller the kink of the wrist gets, and eventually there really isn't even a kink. But to develop this technique at slow tempos, you really have to exaggerate the kink motion (ala Jeff Queen's video).
Your wrist does have to bend, (as you said) at higher tempos so eventually there isnt a "kink."
I believe Dom used a "string" theory to explain it. Like tying a string to your wrist & lifting it like a puppeteer.

Anyway....thats only for uptempo playing, when your playing succesive notes & you want an accent.
As you play slower, the wrist should bend less & rotate more.
Pronation of the forearm is what Im talking about.

If Im playing really slow, the elbow comes out & generates the power.
But the wrist still stays straight.

Like you said though, it would much easier to sit across from each other with a practice pad than tryin got explain it on here. Too bad you don't have a simple web cam or video camera to post!
Tell me about it.
Ive got a video camera, but its a Hi8, and I have 0 experience in transferring video to computer or internet.

Now if you could please give us a better way to develop the alternating moeller strokes than the way Derrick does, I'd be appreciative. Derricks video has done wonders for my left hand comping, but everytime I try to do singles with alternating sticks I just default to my usual double stroke RLLRRL RLLRRL...
All I can say is just to keep your wrist straight (in line w/your forearm) and pronate your wrist. Thats the most powerful stroke.

As for your left hand, Im a matched grip player.
This a deep enough pond Ive stepped in, and I aint about to leap into the traditional grip argument. Thats for someone else.

[Stu_Strib]

Actually, I've got the traditional left hand down rather well, it is my stupid right hand for once that is lagging. I'm gonna work the pronation thing...

Can you expand further...Do I play a full stroke, then allow rebound (free stroke style) THEN use a pronated stroke for the upbeat (stolen) note as I "rewind" back to the starting position for a down stroke. Or is the pronated stroke somewhere else (like the first or second stroke produced)?

[Shane G]

Can you expand further...Do I play a full stroke, then allow rebound (free stroke style) THEN use a pronated stroke for the upbeat (stolen) note as I "rewind" back to the starting position for a down stroke. Or is the pronated stroke somewhere else (like the first or second stroke produced)?
To play triplets, as Chapin taught me, you begin with a full stroke. Which is a full wrist turn, or if your playing loud, a drop of your elbow (w/the stick overhead) ending in a wrist turn.

Then the next note is a pronated stroke. Similar motion to the first, but half as loud.

And the last note is also a pronated stroke, but your wrist is rising when you hit. This is the "stolen" note, as you call it.
You strike the drum as you are raising your wrist. And you raise your wrist using your bicep, not by bending your wrist.

Thats 3 notes.(or hits)

Now...the faster you play, the less the elbow or lift of the wrist is involved. It becomes almost like a flick because you are concentrating the movements smaller & smaller.
You shouldnt raise or flick your wrist until right before the 1st note. So if youre playing continuous triplets, you raise your wrist in between the 3rd note & the downbeat.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Shane,

I believe I may have misinterpreted your earlier post. One of the problems is nomenclature. Dom actually uses a significantly different system than Chapin does. What Dom calls an "informal pull out" Jim calls "up-down". What Jim calls a "pull-out" Dom calls a "formal upstroke". I remember now how confused I was when I first sat down with Jim and he asked me to show him pull-outs and he called what I did "up-down".

[QUOTE=Shane G]
As you play slower, the wrist should bend less & rotate more.
Pronation of the forearm is what Im talking about.

If Im playing really slow, the elbow comes out & generates the power.
But the wrist still stays straight.

All I can say is just to keep your wrist straight (in line w/your forearm) and pronate your wrist. Thats the most powerful stroke.

QUOTE]


This sounds like the J. Burns Moore stroke that Jim talks about. There's no whip involved. More like a karate chop. Technically not Moeller but still part of Chapin's teachings. Is that what you mean?

When it comes to arguing over "correct" techniques and "legit" Moeller that you have to realize that Jim is a product of his generation. I wouldn't waste my time learning the whole sticks in the air thing that he does and Famularo doesn't even teach it. Also his method of pull-outs goes against the entire free stroke concept (Famularo's words NOT mine). I would seriously recommend anyone wanting to learn Moeller technique as it applies to modern drumset playing to check out Dom Famularo's book "It's Your Move". It should follow right after Jim's video in order of study. The basic concept of multiple stokes from one wrist movement is still there of course but he also incorporates knowledge from the Morello school that lends the technique even more usefulness in today's loud fast music.

It's amazing but TO THIS DAY Morello and Chapin still disagree over details like in this thread. These men have known each other for almost 50 years!!! So to expect us to sort it out in an internet forum is actually pretty unrealistic.

[Shane G]

This sounds like the J. Burns Moore stroke that Jim talks about. There's no whip involved. More like a karate chop. Technically not Moeller but still part of Chapin's teachings.
yeah...I completely understand how Dom & Jim call the same thing two different terms.
I remember a similar thing happened to me when I took my 1st lesson from Dom.

Anyway....yeah, I forgot about the J. Burns Moore thing.
So are you saying that the wrist bend is the Moeller part?

[Jeff Almeyda]

Anyway....yeah, I forgot about the J. Burns Moore thing.
So are you saying that the wrist bend is the Moeller part?

Well, I look at it as the whipping motion being the essence of the Moeller so whatever generates the whip is the Moeller part. As you stated, you can generate the whip from the wrist, elbow and even from up at the shoulder as well. (Low, med, high Moeller)

I have to say, it's great to "talk shop" when everyone is nice and calm. Welcome aboard.

[Shane G]

When it comes to arguing over "correct" techniques and "legit" Moeller that you have to realize that Jim is a product of his generation. I wouldn't waste my time learning the whole sticks in the air thing that he does and Famularo doesn't even teach it. Also his method of pull-outs goes against the entire free stroke concept (Famularo's words NOT mine).
I agree....the only person Im aware of who has benifitted from the whole "sticks in the air thing" is Kenny Aronoff. And maybe Liberty DeVitto. The rest of us just simply dont need to hit that hard.

And I didnt come in here to argue, per se.

I posted what I did because so many people were praising Derrick as showing them "the right way" to execute Moeller when clearly it wasnt the same as what Dom & Jim teach.
Granted....its similar, but not the same.
Thats my beef.
Its good....but it aint Moeller. Its Derricks version of it.

It's amazing but TO THIS DAY Morello and Chapin still disagree over details like in this thread. These men have known each other for almost 50 years!!! So to expect us to sort it out in an internet forum is actually pretty unrealistic.
I know Im arguing semantics. But isnt this the kind of place to do that?

I also know its unrealistic to try and get answers about body movement from text.

But when it comes to Moeller, I believe Jim is correct, Dom is close, and everyone else has their own take. (Me, You & Aronoff included)

Just call it your take...dont call it Moeller.

[Bernhard]

Ok Ok .........let's call it the famous

DERRICK POPE TECHNIQUE


Bernhard

[Auger]

Well, I look at it as the whipping motion being the essence of the Moeller so whatever generates the whip is the Moeller part. As you stated, you can generate the whip from the wrist, elbow and even from up at the shoulder as well. (Low, med, high Moeller)

I have to say, it's great to "talk shop" when everyone is nice and calm. Welcome aboard.

That's what I was trying to say -just much more well put, haha! Nicely said!

I was taught with the motion always originating from the shoulder and told to imagine the arm like a piece of rope that someone has whipped a wave through. -Or like a little kid playing with a garden hose -how they'll whip it and the wave travels down the hose -just imagine the arm like the rope/hose. That was the hardest thing for me to learn because I spent my first 15 years keeping the upper arm totally out of the game except to move around the set.

[djp132]

BERNHARD HAS SO TOTALLY GOT MY BACK!


Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[djp132]

AND NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!

[Bernhard]

This are the newest stats of the Derrick-Videos downloads at Drummerworld (..the website, not the forum). Speaks for itsself...

Bernhard

[aahznightsky]

Those are impressive stats! Its great to see so many people learning about good drum technique!

[RickJames]

Are you going to make a video in regards to the use of the index finger in traditional?

[Waterjet]

It might be of interest to some to check out Danny Britts website. He demonstrates the moeller technique as well. He is a great teacher. It all looks pretty much the same to me.

Maybe we should give Derrick's his own name. The PopeMoe method.

Waterjet

[Shane G]

Would this be the same Waterjet from jazzhouston?

[lildrummerman03]

This video rocks... I've got the right hand down pretty well, and I've almost got the traditional left as well. It should only take practice, for I am used to marching traditional grip for my high schools drumline. I am 2nd snare, 'cuz I am a sophmore only in my 2nd year marching, under the footsteps of our center snare who is a senior (and good friend of mine). He makes fun of me for attempting the Moeller Grip, but we'll all see who's laughing once I'm blowing him away in sixtuplet single strokes! Thank you so much for the video, you have an amazing ability to relate the drumming styles to every day life that emphazises technique even more! You rock, I cannot wait for more videos, keep up the good work! :-)

Rob

[Stu_Strib]

you begin with a full stroke. Which is a full wrist turn, or if your playing loud, a drop of your elbow (w/the stick overhead) ending in a wrist turn.

Then the next note is a pronated stroke. Similar motion to the first, but half as loud.

And the last note is also a pronated stroke, but your wrist is rising when you hit.

Ok, that helps a lot. At what point does it turn from pronated wrists to just a throw down, with a dribble, then an upstroke with pronation for the "stolen" note? It seems playing two wrist pronations defeats the whole point of one motion getting three sounds, as this seems like 3 motions getting three sounds, (until you get to higher tempos?).

Using Derrick's technique, (or the Dom puppet string analogy) I find it impossible to play the notes without the first one being much more accented (nature of the beast?).

Get someone to help you post a video! You must know someone?

[Shane G]

Ok, that helps a lot. At what point does it turn from pronated wrists to just a throw down, with a dribble, then an upstroke with pronation for the "stolen" note?
At higher tempos.

The slower you play, the less the wrist is involved.
The faster you play, more it becomes the "dribble" as we've been discussing.
It seems playing two wrist pronations defeats the whole point of one motion getting three sounds, as this seems like 3 motions getting three sounds, (until you get to higher tempos?).
No, no, no....you misunderstood me.

Never EVER 2 motions, always 1 motion...its just that your hand will be following, (or floating with) the stick on the rebound strokes.
Those rebound strokes will be the same in volume, but not as loud as your first note.

Using Derrick's technique, (or the Dom puppet string analogy) I find it impossible to play the notes without the first one being much more accented (nature of the beast?).
Yes....the 1st note will be accented.
Thats what the Moeller technique gives you...ability to accent anywhere, anytime.

Check out the Moeller video on Danny Britts site.
His elbows and wrists look much better than Derricks.

[djp132]

His elbows and wrists look much better than Derricks.
My elbows are cute; they took quite an offense to that. Heh

I guess it's cool you guys are breaking it down and analyzing it, but its just a technique. In the end does it really matter what it's particular name is on a given day?

Derrick

PS - all sarcasm, im not trying to be mean to anyone.

[Waterjet]

Would this be the same Waterjet from jazzhouston?


Yes! It is!

Waterjet / Love the Drum / Worship at its Temple

[Shane G]

Yes! It is!
wow...my worlds keep colliding all the time.

Did they ban you from jazzhouston?
I havent seen your posts in a while.

Props on the Danny Britt site...thanks for that.
How do you know him? Are you a friend of his?

[Waterjet]

wow...my worlds keep colliding all the time.

Did they ban you from jazzhouston?
I havent seen your posts in a while.

Props on the Danny Britt site...thanks for that.
How do you know him? Are you a friend of his?


Ban Me? No. It no longer interested me. My main interest is drums, so if I visit a site now it's drum related. How do I know Danny Britt? I found his site a good while back and I love his videos. Danny's a GREAT teacher. I think those kids are really lucky to have him around. I found his video clips on technique were some of the best I've seen. He can also play the snot out of a drum!

The drum TV show sounds great. I wish I could get it here.

[Waterjet]

For those times one might feel cocky about their technique

http://store.drumbum.com/drums/drum-solos.htm

12 years old!

Waterjet

[rhythMADist]

Thanks for the video, i'm working on the techniques, hope you will post more different videos, maybe showing yourself playing on the set or sth. thanks again.

[Stu_Strib]

For those times one might feel cocky about their technique

http://store.drumbum.com/drums/drum-solos.htm

Waterjet

Hey, most of those videos are hosted on here as well! Might as well give Bernhard some props!

[Waterjet]

Hey, most of those videos are hosted on here as well! Might as well give Bernhard some props!


The link was for the Tony Royster JR solo, which is not here.

Waterjet

[Jeff Almeyda]

All of this talk about "legitimate" Moeller technique is strange to me. Do you really want to play exactly the way they did almost a hundred years ago? Moeller used to dress up like a minuteman and walk around playing the drum slung over his shoulder (and this was in the 30's!!!). Is it possible that techniques have advanced since his time?

He himself never developed it to the level that someone like Steve Smith or JoJo has. So why do we care if it's a "legitimate" Moeller nor not?. If it wasn't for Chapin the name Moeller would have disappeared into history but drummers would still be using whippng motions to generate accents and speed.

Whipping techniques can be done from the Traditional, French, German and American positions. The whip itself can be generated from the wrist, elbow or shoulder depending upon the dynamic level. As far as elbow and wrist position; those would be dictated by the grip used. When I play from French position my elbows are in compared to when I play from German position. Each position has it plusses and minuses. French will never generate the power that German can, for example, but French "Moeller" triplets are one of the most effortless things to play once mastered.

Also at lower dynamics, slower speeds or during passages without accents the Moeller technique is not even necessary and in some cases it is actually undesirable. Once again, right tool for the job..

One key to all of this is developing excellent form and control of the free stroke. If the free stroke is not ingrained as a reflex action into your nervous system then the whip will be that much more difficult to execute.

Joe Morello does not teach "Moeller" per se. His Moeller lesson to me was one sentence long: "It's easy, just think of a stagecoach driver whipping the horses"

IMO, 'nuff said.

[Bernhard]

The link was for the Tony Royster JR solo, which is not here.

Waterjet


HHeeee????

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/tonyroyster.html

Bernhard

[Amoore]

These videos are the best and most learning video i have ever seen... :)
I want more! I really learned so much and thanks thanks thanks all the way from denmark...

- André Moore

[djp132]

As I have announced earlier, the next video in the DP-TV Jedi Technique series will be practical applications of the techniques covered in the 3 previous videos. I was planning on having this done this week, however something has come up, and it's pretty cool actually.

A few weeks ago I visited a video and sound production / recording studio to discuss making a dvd and things of that nature. After a 2 hour meeting with the owner, we both reached the conclusion that the things they do at the studio are things I already know like the back of my hand. So basically I went in looking to make a dvd, and I ended up getting a job. I am head of IT, web and graphic design, and head sound technician and engineer. Basically big words that translate into "getting paid a lot to do a lot of really cool stuff"

That being said, I obviously have a new priority that takes precedence above all others right now. Especially these first few weeks at the job learning the ropes.

However, this is NOT "the end" of my videos or anything like that at all. The 4th video WILL be recorded and online very soon, just not as soon as I (and others) had hoped. Hopefully sometime next week.

Thank you all for your support and encouragement,
Derrick

[NUTHA JASON]

hey that is wonderful news. well done, you deserve it.

j

[Jeff Almeyda]

Well done, Bro!! The only thing you'll have to worry about now will be finding the time to practice!! LOL

Best of luck in your new job.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

As I have announced earlier, the next video in the DP-TV Jedi Technique series will be practical applications of the techniques covered in the 3 previous videos. I was planning on having this done this week, however something has come up, and it's pretty cool actually.

A few weeks ago I visited a video and sound production / recording studio to discuss making a dvd and things of that nature. After a 2 hour meeting with the owner, we both reached the conclusion that the things they do at the studio are things I already know like the back of my hand. So basically I went in looking to make a dvd, and I ended up getting a job. I am head of IT, web and graphic design, and head sound technician and engineer. Basically big words that translate into "getting paid a lot to do a lot of really cool stuff"

That being said, I obviously have a new priority that takes precedence above all others right now. Especially these first few weeks at the job learning the ropes.

However, this is NOT "the end" of my videos or anything like that at all. The 4th video WILL be recorded and online very soon, just not as soon as I (and others) had hoped. Hopefully sometime next week.

Thank you all for your support and encouragement,
Derrick

Haha! Brilliant. Not only will your fourth video be much anticipated by the lot of us, you might get a soundproof room so we don't have to hear the cars outside. I'm joking of course, we all appreciate your videos and the time that's gone into making them.

Congratulations on the job, it sounds like a lot of fun.

[averypoordrummer]

As I have announced earlier, the next video in the DP-TV Jedi Technique series will be practical applications of the techniques covered in the 3 previous videos. I was planning on having this done this week, however something has come up, and it's pretty cool actually.

A few weeks ago I visited a video and sound production / recording studio to discuss making a dvd and things of that nature. After a 2 hour meeting with the owner, we both reached the conclusion that the things they do at the studio are things I already know like the back of my hand. So basically I went in looking to make a dvd, and I ended up getting a job. I am head of IT, web and graphic design, and head sound technician and engineer. Basically big words that translate into "getting paid a lot to do a lot of really cool stuff"

That being said, I obviously have a new priority that takes precedence above all others right now. Especially these first few weeks at the job learning the ropes.

However, this is NOT "the end" of my videos or anything like that at all. The 4th video WILL be recorded and online very soon, just not as soon as I (and others) had hoped. Hopefully sometime next week.

Thank you all for your support and encouragement,
Derrick

congratulations, on getting the job and your new member title.

[Soffer]

well deserved man!
we'll be here waiting anxiously for your next vid.

best of luck with the job!

[centralzeke]

All of this talk about "legitimate" Moeller technique is strange to me. Do you really want to play exactly the way they did almost a hundred years ago? Moeller used to dress up like a minuteman and walk around playing the drum slung over his shoulder (and this was in the 30's!!!). Is it possible that techniques have advanced since his time?

He himself never developed it to the level that someone like Steve Smith or JoJo has. So why do we care if it's a "legitimate" Moeller nor not?. If it wasn't for Chapin the name Moeller would have disappeared into history but drummers would still be using whippng motions to generate accents and speed.

Whipping techniques can be done from the Traditional, French, German and American positions. The whip itself can be generated from the wrist, elbow or shoulder depending upon the dynamic level. As far as elbow and wrist position; those would be dictated by the grip used. When I play from French position my elbows are in compared to when I play from German position. Each position has it plusses and minuses. French will never generate the power that German can, for example, but French "Moeller" triplets are one of the most effortless things to play once mastered.

Also at lower dynamics, slower speeds or during passages without accents the Moeller technique is not even necessary and in some cases it is actually undesirable. Once again, right tool for the job..

One key to all of this is developing excellent form and control of the free stroke. If the free stroke is not ingrained as a reflex action into your nervous system then the whip will be that much more difficult to execute.

Joe Morello does not teach "Moeller" per se. His Moeller lesson to me was one sentence long: "It's easy, just think of a stagecoach driver whipping the horses"

IMO, 'nuff said.

He himself didn't develop this technique like someone like Smith has? Are you kidding? Pretty bold statement considering Moeller was a marching rudimental drummer, he must have had impeccable technique.. and this particular one, nailed down.

[djp132]

This morning I checked my email and was surprised to find this in my inbox:

"Hi derrick,
Sorry for the delay of my response (I'm touring internationally these days).
I looked at the video a couple of days ago. It's pretty cool and should be
helpful to many drummers. I like your straight forward approach and the
unpretentious vibe. keep up the good work.
Peace,
jojo"

How cool is that? This seems to just keep getting better and better..... I shouldnt say that, im going to jinx it.

I sent an email to him (and to a few other big name drummers) about my first video. His is the first response of the "elite" i suppose you could call them, and he only mentiones the moeller video. I wonder if he saw the 2nd vid that shows his techniques. Maybe I'll send him another email pointing to the other vids.....

Anyways, wow
Derrick

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

He himself didn't develop this technique like someone like Smith has? Are you kidding? Pretty bold statement considering Moeller was a marching rudimental drummer, he must have had impeccable technique.. and this particular one, nailed down.
Zeke, you often speak with great conviction on matters where you have little expertise: Moeller himselg claimed no originality to the technique. He pieced it together from watching field drummers. He didn't call it the Moeller, we do. DPS

[centralzeke]

Zeke, you often speak with great conviction on matters where you have little expertise: Moeller himselg claimed no originality to the technique. He pieced it together from watching field drummers. He didn't call it the Moeller, we do. DPS

I could say the same for you.

Where did I say he invented it? I was saying he probably had great technique considering he was heavy into rudimental drumming, and that it's ridiculous to say that Moeller himself didn't master the technique to the level of Steve Smith or Jo Jo Mayer... you can only say that if you had had lessons with Moeller himself and he has shown you the extent of his chops. That is no longer possible. And yes got his method from watching field drummers.

It'd be like saying George Lawrence Stone didn't master the free stroke..

[djp132]

hey fellas its cool if you want to argue about names and dates and techniques and whatever, just dont do it on my thread please, i dont think thats asking much

thanks
Derrick

[centralzeke]

Sorry Pope! Great videos by the way.. your style of Moeller is much like Steve Smith's adaptation.

[djp132]

you da man zeke.


Derrick

[JUNGO]

Great lesson - thank you!

I have 1 comment though....
I watched Jim Chapin's short clip with famularo(vic firth website) and I think he said there that his stick motion in the Moeller stroke is not depending on the rebound at all and that the stick has its motion just from the hand motion.
i'm using the moeller according to his explanation and the 2nd and 3rd are deriving from the hand move up and not necessarily the rebound.
1 more note - i also use this technique for one handed 16th on the HH - and its great (as a double stroke of course..)

Anyway...great lesson !
thanks.
boaz-Israel.

[averypoordrummer]

since starting to attempt the moeller technique after that excellent video i've felt a definite improvement. this boosted my confidence and i'm playing better all round now.

playing quite quickly has become easier, and i can do so more relaxed. but when i play quickly it feels like i'm using a cross between the free stroke and moeller. strange.

but i was so chuffed when i played a massive 16th note triplet fill at about 130bpm during band practice yesterday! that was thanks to derrick's vid and all the other things i've found on this site and links to others, such as dom famularo explaining the free stroke.

can the free stroke and moeller be used in conjunction with one another? is that something ither drummers get naturally?

[MahaVishn]

hey man i have question, when u explained the heel/toe method, so i started to try out but couldn't get it down on my pedal......i couldn't get any beat with my heel coz it was heating so far down it was actually hitting the hinge , so i tried a friends IronCobra, it also had the same problem my foot is too long or the pedal is too short,....so does anyone have any advice, or that's it my feet are too big???:D

[centralzeke]

can the free stroke and moeller be used in conjunction with one another? is that something ither drummers get naturally?

Totally. If you've mastered Moeller, it's safe to say you're close to mastering free stroke too, if you haven't already, cause part of Moeller is accepting the rebound. At least that was the case with me: Moeller came first, and then I cracked free stroke.

Some drummers get these naturally, but I don't think I ever would have if I hadn't read about them. It's usually a matter of how you grip the sticks and stroke that gets in the way. These two techniques blend seamlessly into each other - same volume, free stroke, accenting, Moeller... once you have them down you don't even have to think about it. Someone could even say the Moeller is just free stroking with a small whipping motion to generate the accent. Once I figured out Moeller, it also gave me the ability to move my fulcrum to anywhere in my hand, which has come very useful. Also, because of Moeller and free stroke I got finger control in my dominant hand, so I'm able to play with just my back fingers (even in German grip) while my wrist doesn't move, Art Verdi style.

Now to work on my left hand..

[drumz4eva]

i just wanted to say once again that this is like one of the best videos i have seen for the moeler one handed roll and all that stuff....u explain it nice and slow and just its perfect!!!

thanks a ton.....

[ewanlaing]

Lol -- take the footstopper away, as all drummers do....like Jojo - also a Sonor Drummer

Bernhard
thanks. i probably shoulda figured that out actually. (looks at floor sheepishly).

[djp132]

since starting to attempt the moeller technique after that excellent video i've felt a definite improvement. this boosted my confidence and i'm playing better all round now.
Thats what it's all about, and thats one of the best compliments I could recieve as a teacher. I hope you continue to grow as a drummer and a musician.

can the free stroke and moeller be used in conjunction with one another? is that something ither drummers get naturally?
The free stroke is letting the stick rebound up after a downstroke. So in a sense, in doing the moeller by allowing the stick to rebound, you are already in a small way, using the free stroke. To me, the terms "free stroke", and "moeller", and whatnot are more like ideas than they are real techniques. No two people do them the same. Everyone learns, plays, and applies differently so maybe the free stroke will play a more prominent role in your exploration of the moeller than it would someone else. Since you seem to be having success using the moeller, and the free stroke is a part of that, then so be it. That makes it yours.

Hope this helps and thanks again for the kind words.
Derrick

[Paradiddle my snizzle]

If i ever turn gay, i know who i wanna marry ;)
(my way of saying i love the 3 videos)

Anyways, i'm new here, althuogh i've been here before, i just had to sign up when i saw those videos. And i have a little question - when you do the "jojo" you do the same two motions over and over, and when dave weckl does his roll he does two other motions voer and over, BUT when i watched the jojo video it seemed like he uses a combination between the two. That is to use the weckl "snap" (u know where u turn the wrist also) on every fourth stroke. To me it seems logical to shift between the "turn of the wrist snap" and the "not turn the wrist snap" because you then have time to relax because youre using different muscles all the time. And it also seems to me to be a good way to play the "metal shaker rythm" - u know where u have an accent on 1 and a little accent on 3 with ghost notes in between. like this:
<
R(r)R(r)
because the weckl "snap" is pretty powerfull.

what do u think?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Off topic but Paradiddle my Snizzle. I think you honestly have one of the best names on the forum.

[Paradiddle my snizzle]

off topic, LOL, thx, i feared that it was already taken, but i took my chances...

on topic, By the way, I use what u might call the opposite moeller when i'm playing for example a samba rythm ( like R rrR rrR rr ) where i use the whip to get the accent on the last of the 3 strokes, and sometimes i use the "weckl snap" on the bell of the ride because it is in that position when i play like: BELL riderideBELL rideride...

what do u guys use?

[johnhavart]

when you do the "jojo" you do the same two motions over and over, and when dave weckl does his roll he does two other motions voer and over, BUT when i watched the jojo video it seemed like he uses a combination between the two. That is to use the weckl "snap" (u know where u turn the wrist also) on every fourth stroke. To me it seems logical to shift between the "turn of the wrist snap" and the "not turn the wrist snap" because you then have time to relax because youre using different muscles all the time. And it also seems to me to be a good way to play the "metal shaker rythm" - u know where u have an accent on 1 and a little accent on 3 with ghost notes in between. like this:
<
R(r)R(r)
because the weckl "snap" is pretty powerfull.

First of all, congrats to Derrick.
I think the comment by Paradiddle my Snizzle seems to me essential. Parrididdle, it would be great if you could video your own approach

[johnhavart]

on topic, By the way, I use what u might call the opposite moeller when i'm playing for example a samba rythm ( like R rrR rrR rr ) where i use the whip to get the accent on the last of the 3 strokes, and sometimes i use the "weckl snap" on the bell of the ride because it is in that position when i play like: BELL riderideBELL rideride...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great !, I'd be delighted to see this on a video

[averypoordrummer]

Thats what it's all about, and thats one of the best compliments I could recieve as a teacher. I hope you continue to grow as a drummer and a musician.



thanks, and thanks to centralzeke too

[sejives]

Hi Derrick,

Would you do a video on how to use finger control ? I'm so curious to learn how to play the jazz ostinato at break neck speed, although someone has told me its not about fingers... anyway, if you could shed some light into the subject that would be very
much appreciated! keep up the awesome work man.

Sergio

[Paradiddle my snizzle]

uhm video - i'm sorry but i dont have equipment nor do i know how to use it, but i'd love to explain more in debth if you have some specific questions. I also think that there must be a lot out there who play like this and maybe someone will volunter to make i little video.

[rumour control]

i have benn trying to do this for about 6 months after being shown very basically what to do. This video is fantastic and straight away i can see where i am going wrong. Back to the practice pad for me. Congrats on a really useful and very informative film. Thanks !

[Chip]

Man, great videos. I'm a little intrigued, though. I thought the technique in the foot video you described as the Steve Smith constant release IS heel toe...... Now I don't know.... Although, Gadd uses it for those doubles, and they sound awesome.

Am I correct in understanding that with heel toe, in the heel stroke, the heel doesn't provide the power all on it's own, kind of starting it with the toe and finishing the stroke with the heel?
If one gets the beater moving even slightly it will reduce the amount one has to push ones heel down. Inertia. Nice name for a brand of cymals or pedals. Don't steal my idea! Hehe.

What are those Elim's like? I decided to get some after I'm out of this money dip I'm in. How well do the red cams perform, are they nice,(haha)?

[abacab]

Thank you for your videos, it really help me to finally understand the moeller.
I begin to feel the moeller and it's really great.
Great job!!!

[pounder]

Derrick: Great video on the Moeller technique, but you asked for feedback, so here it is. You do a fine job explaining the basic technique, but then gloss over the technique for the alternating rolls. I've got the basic triplet technique down, and reviewed your video to try to attempt the next stage, which is the alternating roll you demonstrate. But I just don't get it. I wish you had spent more time explaining this. I've watched several times now and I just don't get what you're doing. Maybe you could explain it a little more in depth here in the discussion forum.
Pounder

[Toothbrush]

Great videos Derrick, you explain it very well and in a way that I really want to go and try it (and i've only had 2 teachers who have done the same thing, I've had 7 teacher in all)

You are very good, you show us the way you do it and encourage us to go and try it in our own way. I'm looking forward to your next video.

[wolfp]

Thank you Derrick!

I really like your style! It's very nice that you encourage people to develop their own thing out of these techiques. I think that takes some pressure out: the principles are always the same, practice a lot with little variations, as soon as it works, feels right and sounds good: That's it!
Smoooth!

Keep it up!
Wolf

[wolfp]

For me it seems that not everyone with every petal can use the heel toe technique: In my case my heel is just too close to the hinge (almost directly above it), even if I move my foot as much forward as possible. This way it's almost impossible to produce a punch with the heel...

Maybe the manufactors should start building different sizes of petals :)

best regards,
Wolf

(excuse my clumsy explanaitions, my mother tongue is german :))

[dasilvs]

DERRICK!

Awesome videos man, you really covered every aspect of drumming from a relaxed, free stroke/moeller perspective. But, here is MY next question:

Is there any chance you might put out another video showing the APPLICATIONS of these techniques in a REAL, BONAFIDE drum setting? Maybe throw a few grooves or solo concepts onto the screen and then explain how you use your moeller/free stroke techniques with the feet and the hands to produce the end result. I think the last step towards helping drummers with these new techniques is showing them how it can fit within the context of a groove or beat rather than keeping it conceptual.

Now THAT would REALLY round out the whole DERRICK DRUMMING EDITION. Keep up the good work, and PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!

[centralzeke]

It sounds like that's the next video he might do.

[djp132]

happy birthday to me yay. 25 years old.... (sigh) I can see that hill coming...
I'm gonna go listen to some johnny cash

Derrick

[human beatbox]

Many happy returns Dude!

Amazing Vids as well, you 0\/\/|\| /\/\3 lol!!

[Bipitta]

Man o' man!

I hadn't been on the site in quite a bit of time... I'm come back, and the first thread I check out is this one...

I am glad I did.

Thanks much!!

[dasilvs]

Only 25, Derrick? I'm 22...there's still hope for me if this is what I have to look forward to in three years, if I keep practicing of course...

[finnhiggins]

happy birthday to me yay. 25 years old.... (sigh) I can see that hill coming...
I'm gonna go listen to some johnny cash


Hah, Derrick - we're not far off the same age. I turned 25 just over a month ago.

One quick question. Loved your heel-toe vid, but in your run-down of the various styles of bass drum technique you didn't seem to include my favourite - a form of heel-up playing where the foot always returns to a heel-down rest position between each stroke unless you're needing to play, say, constant 8th notes. When you need to move up for a leg stroke then you roll the foot forwards on the pedal (similar to the Steve Smith/"constant release" technique you detail, but WITHOUT allowing the rolling motion to cause a stroke against the head) and then drop your leg. If you want a sequence of, say, 16th notes then you can play a series of strokes from the ankle while in a heel-up position before dropping your leg on the last stroke.

Have you come across this? If so, what are your thoughts?

[Vic_Rattledeth]

All I can get is the sound. So my question on the moeller technique is how do you goabout rebounding the stick? When doing ti with one hand I can't get one continuous motion I always have to stop for a second before starting it over. How should the hand be potitioned and etc?

[S.C.]

I'd like to say Hi and thanks Derrick for the informative and fun videos.

Being a drummer/teacher myself, it was nice to see another, refreshing perspective, without arguing about single details.

I would like to mention that the whip technique can also very well be applied to non-rebounding surfaces, like low-tuned drums or closed hi-hat (edge). As great as the rebound principle can be for speed on snare drum and similar hard surfaces, the whip can be very beneficial for playing accented patterns on the softer surfaces. The softer strokes in between just have to be played more actively then, tap strokes instead of rebounds.

Kind of related: One could focus on the "stolen" tap (upstroke, informal pull-out) separately, the one that takes place right before the main accent whip stroke. This helps to connect the ends of the pattern and form a continuous line of strokes. (Maybe that's what you emant, Rattledeath?)

-------

Great to see the traditional-grip push-pull-stroke in the second video. One question here: Would you agree the thumb of your left hand kind of squeezes on the rebound? I think in order to have the same volume as the main tap, there has to be some extra impulse for the second stroke, not just a passive rebound. I'm just trying to figure it out for myself.

Once again, thanks for your effort. I'm looking forward to seeing the next video!

[k3ng]

I have to say though, I was a little disappointed with the heel-toe vids. No offense Derrick, awesome vids and teachings, but not really what I was hoping to learn from 'heel-toe'

I'm still waiting to see someone explain the heel toe and how it's applied into a single pedal (the way Jojo does it), as I don't have a double pedal and after seeing Jojo do his heel toe stuff I thought I could learn that as a somewhat alternative.

I also see sometimes people's feet sliding along the footboard, so any idea what that does?

[THEjortex]

Derrick,
your videos are very cool !!

I will practise each one by one because it demands some practisings => I like to work tehcnics it's true that you explain very well !!

at the moment, I attack the moeller technic !! LOL, i miss training for my left arm (not so relax i suppose to do !!)

keep drumming ;-)

[djp132]

FINALLY made the fourth video, applications of previous techniques on drumset, and a little woodshedding from me. It'll be here until it gets posted on my personal page (http://www.drummerworld.com/wishlistdrummers/Derrick_Pope.html). Hope you enjoy, and as always, FEEDBACK IS GOOD!!

www.derrickpope.net/setapplication.wmv
www.derrickpope.net/setapplication.mp4

Derrick

[djp132]

FINALLY made the fourth video, applications of previous techniques on drumset, and a little woodshedding from me. It'll be here and in my thread until it gets posted on my personal page (http://www.drummerworld.com/wishlistdrummers/Derrick_Pope.html). Hope you enjoy, and as always, FEEDBACK IS GOOD!!

www.derrickpope.net/setapplication.wmv
www.derrickpope.net/setapplication.mp4

Derrick